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Thread: Concrete Beam / Column Clean Join

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    Concrete Beam / Column Clean Join

    I have had this issue on more than one project that I have noticed, where concrete beams and concrete columns do not clean join. They are joined, but there is still a line at their common edge.

    They are the same material, that is the first thing I checked.

    They will both clean join with a floor slab, but not each other. I am using the OOTB Revit families.

    If anyone knows how to change this behavior, it would be appreciated. Thanks.

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    Not enough information. To exclude guessing, please attach a screenshot or better a piece of the model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurlan View Post
    Not enough information. To exclude guessing, please attach a screenshot or better a piece of the model.
    I could provide a screenshot showing no clean join between a concrete column and beam (in both plan and section), but I am not sure this would provide any more information than my description. Can you be more specific on what you would like? It is not something I always want, but especially in plan if both are dashed, there are dashed lines on dashed lines makes the column appear solid.

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    I discussed this with the engineers in the office, and upon further reflection I am not sure we would ever need beam and column clean joins, if everything is modeled properly, with the column stopping at the underside of the beam, there will correctly be a horizontal construction joint at the bottom of the beam.

    If the column is incorrectly modeled one as a single element over multiple floors (which is a lot faster to model but not correct construction procedure), running continuously through the floor, there will be an incorrect vertical construction joint shown at the column/beam intersection. If the elements were cleaned joined, it would be fairly easy in the detail to draw a construction joint, but getting rid of the vertical construction joint is more tedious.

    I am still curious if this is a default Revit behavior that cannot be changed.

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    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    It isnt working that way, for me. It is doing what i would expect, here. Which is:

    1. If i model Structural Concrete Columns so that the top is Aligned with Level 2
    2. I model a Concrete Structural Framing Family where the top of the beam is at Level 2

    There are no joint lines on top (that are visible in a Level 2 Plan, or a 3D view. There are joint lines on the underside, which i expect because i used a wider beam than the column. When i make them the exact same width, there are NO joint lines in elevation, or on the sides in 3D.

    Make sure your "Material for Model Behavior" is set to Concrete, i guess? Because it works fine here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    It isnt working that way, for me. It is doing what i would expect, here. Which is:

    1. If i model Structural Concrete Columns so that the top is Aligned with Level 2
    2. I model a Concrete Structural Framing Family where the top of the beam is at Level 2

    There are no joint lines on top (that are visible in a Level 2 Plan, or a 3D view. There are joint lines on the underside, which i expect because i used a wider beam than the column. When i make them the exact same width, there are NO joint lines in elevation, or on the sides in 3D.

    Make sure your "Material for Model Behavior" is set to Concrete, i guess? Because it works fine here.
    Thanks for the reply.

    I am not sure what I am doing differently, but I am not getting the same behavior. I am repeating the behavior with the following steps:

    Revit 2017: New project with structural template file.
    Model concrete floor at Level 2.
    Model 2 concrete columns with the top at Level 2.
    Model Beam at Level 2 with same width as columns, spanning between the columns.
    Cut a section.
    There is a vertical joint line. See the attached image.

    If I make the beam wider than the column, I get a horizontal line (which isn't a bad thing but not what I would expect from joined elements of the same material), and a vertical hidden line. If I drop the top of the column to the bottom of the beam, I still get a vertical joint line, which again is not necessarily a bad thing. The beam is joined to the slab (which is apparently if the section cut is placed through the beam), and the column will readily join with the slab as well.

    Both the column and beam are using the default "Concrete, Cast-in-Place Gray" material, and both have the material for model behavior set to concrete. These are the OOTB families that come in the OOTB template. Reloading them doesn't seem to do anything.

    Concrete Beam / Column Clean Join-concrete-beam-column-join.jpg

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    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    Oh. In your original post, you didnt mention the floor being there at the time. In that case, my guess would be that its an order of operations, thing.

    I tried it several times. One time (putting the floor in first) they didnt join properly. But then three other times (putting floor in first) they did. ALL of the times i put the floor in last, they worked perfectly.

    Not sure whats different in your file, template, or Revit version, though. Im in 2018.3 while testing, because im working on a job in 2018 right now and didnt feel like opening 2019.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Concrete Beam / Column Clean Join-2019-05-13_10-09-13.png   Concrete Beam / Column Clean Join-2019-05-13_10-13-52.png  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    Oh. In your original post, you didnt mention the floor being there at the time. In that case, my guess would be that its an order of operations, thing.

    I tried it several times. One time (putting the floor in first) they didnt join properly. But then three other times (putting floor in first) they did. ALL of the times i put the floor in last, they worked perfectly.

    Not sure whats different in your file, template, or Revit version, though. Im in 2018.3 while testing, because im working on a job in 2018 right now and didnt feel like opening 2019.
    I have tried with Revit 2019 and gotten the same results, but the families are the same. This is another perplexing issue I am having. Revit 2019 has been installed with a fresh copy downloaded directly from Autodesk, but the families are old. Loading them I get an "upgrading" message, from 2016. The same is true with the template. I don't know if this is because I have multiple versions on the same machine (Revit 2016 being the oldest) or what, but the families come directly from the RVT 2019 folder that was installed with the Revit 2019 software. The other machine I use Revit on that has 2017 on it seems to have installed 2017 families for all versions. I cannot stick to one Revit version, this is simply not possible, we have to use the version our various clients are using and have no control over the version requirements for the project. This is 3 different machines I have had the same issue with.

    If anyone has any insights to this issue as well, it would be appreciated. I suppose a workaround would be to install Revit as a trial on a clean machine with no Revit and copy the content library, but this seems kind of crazy to need to do. I think I posted about this once before and got no replies.

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    This is known Revit join behavior, you can't change it (as far as I know). The floor doesn't matter here.
    Workarounds:
    Use Switch Join Order for already created beams.
    When creating a concrete beam, make it longer than the span (see Aaron screenshots), then drag the ends to the centers of columns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI1viJ8iUmI

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    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurlan View Post
    This is known Revit join behavior, you can't change it (as far as I know). The floor doesn't matter here.
    Workarounds:
    Use Switch Join Order for already created beams.
    When creating a concrete beam, make it longer than the span (see Aaron screenshots), then drag the ends to the centers of columns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI1viJ8iUmI
    Oh, interesting: Is mine always working because i made the beam longer? LOL, thats funny.

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