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Thread: Copy/Monitor rotates structural column

  1.    #1
    Member tuekappel's Avatar
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    Unhappy Copy/Monitor rotates structural column



    Hello everybody.

    I'm struggling with a problem copy/monitoring columns from our structural engineer's model. I've uploaded it here, if you want to replicate the error, do like this:



    • link the file STRUC into an empty ARCH model
    • Copy/Monitor options for columns: Copy original Type, for the rest of the categories: Don't copy this Type
    • Copy/Monitor all the columns from the STRUC model
    • Observe how some columns, not all; are rotated 90 degrees from their original. You can see how the column brackets (is that the term? ) poke out in all the wrong places.... -And i'm not getting any warnings in Coordination Review.


    I'm scratching my head on this one, but my experience with Copy/Monitor is very limited, so i thought you guys might give me a hint before i start pointing fingers at our structural engineers...-i suspect they might have mirrored while modelling?
    Or is it just the whole Copy/monitor process that is flawed?

    I could easily rotate all those columns, but you all know how it is: if I alter geometry, I accept responsibility. And that's kinda the whole idea of copy/monitoring, to keep the responsibility in the right place.

    -Hoping you guys can help, thanks in advance for your time.

    Cheers
    -tue

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Copy/Monitor rotates structural column-1.png   Copy/Monitor rotates structural column-2.png  

  2.    #2
    Mr. Revit OpEd
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    It's probably because the column was rotated using the Spacebar and the C/M column is placed according to it's origin and orientation. Imagine placing the column yourself. You'd probably have to rotate the column as you place it or afterward to get it in the same orientation. C/M is pretty so/so for such things. I only use it for Levels and Grids personally.

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    Member tuekappel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve_Stafford View Post
    It's probably because the column was rotated using the Spacebar and the C/M column is placed according to it's origin and orientation
    Hmmm.....-is there any modelling advice/rules i can impose on our engineers to avoid this? best practice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve_Stafford View Post
    C/M is pretty so/so for such things
    That's depressing.
    As a work-around; would it be possible to copy/paste the columns (or bind link) and then monitor? That way i would get the orientation right, and the monitoring would keep track of the position?

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    Forum Co-Founder Alfredo Medina's Avatar
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    What if you don't copy monitor the structural columns and simply use the structural model as the only structural columns? What is the current stage of the project? Maybe you don't need to have two sets of columns at this stage, do you?
    Last edited by Alfredo Medina; January 8th, 2019 at 09:36 AM. Reason: grammar
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  5.    #5
    Mr. Revit OpEd
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    The original notion of C/M for columns was based on a presumption that architects place columns conceptually where they want them or think they're needed. Then the structural engineer uses C/M to create columns but mapped to place the correct columns types instead. It's a general assumption that other trades merely link structural model into theirs for reference sake, like Alfredo commented.

    There is no need to maintain the Monitored relationship long term as the engineers columns would take over once they've been created and their sizes adjusted for the structural design requirements. If there are pilasters (walls) that mask columns then the architects model would include those (add them to their model) but let the structural model's columns take their role.
    Last edited by Steve_Stafford; January 8th, 2019 at 09:34 AM.

  6.    #6
    Member tuekappel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfredo Medina View Post
    What if you don't copy monitor the structural columns and simply use the structural model as the only structural columns? What is the current stage is the project? Maybe you don't need to have two sets of columns at this stage; do you?
    I had the exact same thoughts, since this problem arose. Especially since str. columns are easy to isolate, we obviously don't have any in our ARCH model.

    -------------------------


    I just finished a phone conversation with our Revit support, https://nti.biz/, and they found that all the columns that have errors in copy/monitor; at one point have been mirrored. Some even mirrored, and then rotated back :-)
    So thats the "error".
    I'll ask the engineer nicely to model them again without mirroring, and perhaps think twicee about C/M structural columns.....

  7.    #7
    Forum Co-Founder Alfredo Medina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuekappel View Post
    ...
    I'll ask the engineer nicely to model them again without mirroring, and perhaps think twicee about C/M structural columns.....
    But if you simply link the structural model, what's the problem that the structural office rotates or mirror columns?
    LeanneZ likes this.

  8.    #8
    Member tuekappel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfredo Medina View Post
    But if you simply link the structural model, what's the problem that the structural office rotates or mirror columns?
    You're perfectly right.

    -----------------

    If anybody runs into the same problem, and need to report the mirrored elements, i threw together a Dynamo graph to tag the culprits:

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Copy/Monitor rotates structural column-2019-01-08_1156.png  

  9.    #9
    Forum Addict josephpeel's Avatar
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    I use CM a lot for MEP and have had the same problem. Basically its another of those Autodesk creations that is incredibly powerful and has a lot of potential.... but they didnt bother to fully test it or make a user freindly interface.

    I find that elements not only rotate when first copied, but also when you use Coordination Review. If something has been moved you can choose to move the copied element to the same position, which is pretty much the whole purpose of the CM function. This works perfectly for position but rotation gets screwed up.

    I also use a combination of copy monitor and Dynamo. Unfortunately the CM functions are not yet open to the API, but you can get the copied and linked elements, match the coordinates, then set the correct orientation.
    You can also Un-mirror the elements you have identified as mirrored. Use mirror elements instead of element, as it doesnt delete and replace the original so the monitoring link doesnt get broken.

    The Coordination Review menu is pretty poor and has limited functions, so I might try making a node to parse the report (Such nodes exist already for error reports).

  10.    #10
    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuekappel View Post
    You're perfectly right.

    -----------------

    If anybody runs into the same problem, and need to report the mirrored elements, i threw together a Dynamo graph to tag the culprits:

    What packages is the Elements.position-rotation-mirrored from?

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