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Thread: Wall Types, Legends, Schedules and Managing it all

  1. #1
    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    Wall Types, Legends, Schedules and Managing it all

    I'm working on revising & setting up our wall type legend & schedule for our template and have some questions / thoughts about the whole process. This is probably more about managing it all rather than technical aspects and I'm sure I'll wander a time or two and for that I apologize in advance.

    Our exterior walls are taken care of in sections so I'm not worried about them as much.

    Interior walls we generally only use a few basic types of walls - 2xW w/ 5/8 GWB, metal stud w/ 5/8" GWB, their rated variations and the occasional masonry assembly. Sound attenuation varies quite a bit based on client, wall location, wall usage and so forth. Occasionally we do end up with furring channels if needed but that is usually a per-project item and not typical. I'd like to get as much automation (revitness) out of the process as I can but I also don't want to end up with 400 wall types in a template to try and cover every single possible variation.


    In general this is what I'm looking at: (for simplicity here just using wood framing)


    1. 2x4 5/8 GWB
    2. 2x6 - 5/8 GWB
    3. 5/8 GWB - 2x4 - 5/8 GWB
    4. 5/8 GWB - 2x4 - 5/8 GWB - Sound Blanket
    5. 5/8 GWB - 2x4 - 5/8 GWB - Rated
    6. 5/8 GWB - 2x6 - 5/8 GWB
    7. 5/8 GWB - 2x6 - 5/8 GWB - Sound Blanket
    8. 5/8 GWB - 2x6 - 5/8 GWB - Rated 1-HR
    9. (2)5/8 GWB - 2x4 - (2)5/8 GWB - Rated 2-HR

    etc

    Management wise that means the template is going to end up with 36+ wall types (wood, metal, masonry) for people to manage while they model in addition to project specific instances, walls that don't extend to structure etc. At what point is it overkill and a management nightmare and at what point is it 'the way to do it'? This also doesn't take into account finishes beyond GWB - tile, wainscoting, panel systems etc. Personally I would rather have documentation / annotation be as painless as possible since managing the model is easy for me but I'm sure others in the office would feel the exact opposite and keeping track of documentation is easy for them.

    How are people handling batting in wall types?

    And the real doozie - I'm considering moving to having finishes separate from the wall assembly. It doesn't seem to make sense to separate out a basic wall (GWB / Framing / GWB) this way but more complex walls it makes sense - unless this approach is really just for exterior walls or walls with different finish conditions.

    Once all of this gets into legend format I run into the issue of how to tag. I've seen a variety of options, ranging from having every wall have it's own tag to tags with suffixes applied indicating a rating or insulation. Internally everyone is fine with updating and revising "the way it's always been done", especially if it makes life easier in the long run so the existing office standard is really just a spring board for all of this.

    As far as what we do now: (see attachment)

    Graphical legend (section) with annotations calling out materials and instructions to the contractor (fire caulking, stop GWB 4" above ceiling etc)
    Text schedule

    Thoughts / opinions / commentary is appreciated and again I apologize if this rambles a bit.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Wall Schedule.png  

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    Moderator Drew's Avatar
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    We are currently going through this same process. At present the team use ADT, it is m job ot implement Revit for all new projects. Simple enough, however I have discovered that they have 750 different wall types......yes, you read correctly...750!!!
    For some reason they like to show not only each cladding layer, but the associated heights, insulation level and acoustic rating. Team this wwith the differing types of cladding, acoustic, wet areas, high impact, typical etc etc... the number soon blows out.

    I am currently trying to reduce the number significantly. I had a great idea.....I thought I could create a shared parameter, being a material which i could then apply to the walls as instances...yep that worked (this way I can have a set number of wall widths and the finishes can be adjusted individually in the schedule). All worked fine. I created a new material tag to read the finish on the wall...but for some reason it wont pick up the information....not sure how to fix it either.

    So i thought, great, I will use a material tag and create a series of material finishes with infomation i can tag on the partition layout. Quicker to duplicate materials and add info.....however, these materials are TYPE based, so i am back to making a stupidly large amount of wall types......

    Anybody got any better ideas?
    Last edited by Drew; March 19th, 2012 at 09:25 AM. Reason: bad spelling

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    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    The only special materials I have so far is Type X GWB for my rated assemblies.

    The shared paramater needs to be in both files and applied to walls in your template.

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    Moderator Drew's Avatar
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    Yeah, I have the parameter in the tag and the template file. I can adjust the materials in the schedule and the walls, the tag won't read the info though?

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    Moderator snowyweston's Avatar
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    We've gone through a seemingly endless number of different ways of doing it, project by project, and with my time at my current place of work soon drawing to an end, it's one of the last parting shots I'm attempting to roll out/into our template.

    So how are we doing it? Well firstly, we're not using Revit's legends. Never have and probably never will.

    We employ the pre-existing phase method (we call it "TYPES") and we place all of our preloaded model content to keep them safe out of harm's way from the "Purge Unused" command.

    Walls are placed divided into 4 sets- "External Core", "External Lining", "Internal Core" and "Internal Lining".

    We then have a "WORKING" section through each of the sets, in which "ISSUE" callouts are placed . These callouts are then view-templated, split/broken etc to look a lot like your snapshot - and the first placed on a predefined sheet for "External Walls" and for "Internal Walls".

    Corresponding schedules are setup to look at each of these sets, but of those in the proposed phase, not the "TYPES" phase (which act as a library/reserve, and are not always in use in a project) - and these schedules are then placed on the respective sheets.

    Annotation wise, we use a mixture of methods - because we've not found one that does it all.

    We have a graphically different wall tag that looks at "TYPE MARK" for cores, and for linings, (for our early plans)

    In our callouts we use Keynote tags (standard and material) to identify the layers

    And we have another set of wall tags (!) for calling out standard, and introduced shared, wall parameters (like Fire rating, Acoustic rating, etc) for when we lose the fight to demand "refer to spec." and/or a project needs us to annotate exhaustively.


    The problem remains how/where to model/identify :
    1. air gaps (which most of our cores actually are - since they're not solid volumes of steel/timber/etc)
    2. insulation (presently drawn)


    To date we have also kept away from embedding fixtures like skirting (and such) into our wall types, or even including them in our callout sections, prefferring to keep them as seperate details since the permutations quickly run up the number of wall types - so stick with documenting the basic "body" of the wall.


    Seeing as I was doing all this just today - I'm very interested to see what (new?) alternative methods others are employing for sure!

    Last edited by snowyweston; March 19th, 2012 at 11:19 PM.

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    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    Yeah, I have the parameter in the tag and the template file. I can adjust the materials in the schedule and the walls, the tag won't read the info though?
    Without seeing it I'm not sure. I am half-way decent at fixing them if I'm hands on. Just saying "adjust this" doesn't work too well for me yet

    Quote Originally Posted by snowyweston View Post
    So how are we doing it? Well firstly, we're not using Revit's legends. Never have and probably never will.

    We employ the pre-existing phase method (we call it "TYPES") and we place all of our preloaded model content to keep them safe out of harm's way from the "Purge Unused" command.
    ...
    In our callouts we use Keynote tags (standard and material) to identify the layers
    ...
    The problem remains how/where to model/identify :
    1. air gaps (which most of our cores actually are - since they're not solid volumes of steel/timber/etc)
    2. insulation (presently drawn)

    To date we have also kept away from embedding fixtures like skirting (and such) into our wall types, or even including them in our callout sections, prefferring to keep them as seperate details since the permutations quickly run up the number of wall types - so stick with documenting the basic "body" of the wall.
    I currently have a Legend phase in the template for the basic wall types that tend to repeat a lot but haven't developed it much past that at the moment. Finishes like wainscoting is usually picked up in an elevation rather than a section in every project that I've worked on but that doesn't mean someone else hasn't made it a walltype.

    I am torn between using the Core + Finish wall system (2 walls) as opposed to making each type a complete wall - mostly for the reasons you mentioned. For an exterior wall it wouldn't be an issue since they don't get scheduled. For interiors I'm not sure. I personally haven't worked on anything that needs it (yet) but when I do I'm sure I'll play around with it. I know Aaron uses the core+finish system and really likes it but having not done it personally it's hard for me to go one way or the other with it.

    The biggest issue I can see is what you guys have mentioned - how to handle walls where there are only slight differences - wall to deck vs 4" above ceiling or sound insulation in an otherwise typical wall.

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    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    Walls for us have Fire Rating *potential* as a type parameter, and then an Instance Text field for "is this wall rated?" Reason being, you can put up an 8 inch block wall, and not fire seal any partitions, and its not a rated wall. But no point having 20 wall types for that. Youre deciding by instance (whether you swap the wall type or add a parameter value, its still an instance decision).

    We try to model them to the correct height in all cases, but for documentation, head condition is another text parameter, and the wall tag has 4 characters. XXAB, where XX is wall type, A is Rated Condition, B is Head Condition/Special Construction.

    We would do the previous phase legend if we were worried about our Partition Type Drawingss being Live (thats how i did it at old offices), but we have standardized partitions, so they are drafting views that dont change.

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    Moderator Drew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    Yeah, I have the parameter in the tag and the template file. I can adjust the materials in the schedule and the walls, the tag won't read the info though?
    It's ok, I fixed it. Turns out I was trying to use the wrong tag category...doh!!

    I have resigned myself to using a combination of type and instance parameters. What makes it complex for us is , foe example, that a 102mm wall can be made in 2 ways.
    1) 76mm stud with 13mm dry wall on each side
    2) 76mm stud with 2x13mm dry wall on one side, none on he other.
    Add to this that the dry wall can be, standard, water resistant, acoustic or high impact and any combination of those!

    Our wall tags for these show as MS102. I have created an SP to note each wall finish/per wall face (which also schedule). These are placed our "partition" plans only.

    So the GA will show the wall tags and the partition layouts show the tags and finishes.
    Basically we can have multiple walls with the same overall thickness, but differing cladding. Seems to work well......so far anyway.
    Last edited by Drew; March 20th, 2012 at 02:29 PM.

  9. #9
    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    We just call those entirely different wall prefixes. A wall type C6 is 7.25 inches, but so is a D6. Except the D's are listed as both layers on one side, where the C's are one layer each side.

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    Moderator Drew's Avatar
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    Yep, currently, in ADT they call them different wall types as well.....hence the 750 wall types!
    There is no way I am creating that many wall types for our new projects.

    I am trying to make the documents easier for the contractor to use on site, particularly with partition set out. They hate having 50 + wall types on a project, especially when a good percentage of them are the same overall width, just differing cladding. Better to simplify the amount of types, well for us anyway.

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