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Thread: Export Materials in fbx to 3dsMax problems

  1. #21
    Moderator gaby424's Avatar
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    I`ve played a little more with Revit 2012 export via fbx and linked the fbx in 3d max Design 2012.
    After 2 days of trial and error and google search about units and map scallings i came to this conclusion:

    -you work in Revit in any unit system you want.

    -than export to fbx (you should know that no matter what units you have set in revit,the fbx always carry your geometriy in a translated version with feet units)

    -in 3d max go to meniu Costumize>Units Setup and set Display Unit Scale to any unit system you want.

    -in the same dialog press the upper button System Unit Setup and set it to be INCHES!!. Very important. This is the default 3D max system unit and it`s not smart to change it to feet(to be the same like fbx) or to other units.

    -in 3d max go to menu References>File Link Manager choose the fbx file and choose to "Combine by Revit materials". Than press "Attach this file"

    -select all your geometry objects that are from Revit(not the geometry that came from another sources or native from Max). Use select by name tool (the button from the right of the select arrow). Be sure to select only the geometry not lights or another things.

    -with all Revit native geometry selected go to modify tab and apply a "UVW Map" modifier and make the Box field and the Real-World Map Size field to be checked.

    -Now everything is ready to be tuned or replaced (for me everything is replaced with arch&design versions).

    *If you add arch&design materials from max to any object in the scene (including revit geometry) be sure that the maps defined in this type of materials are set to Real-World Scale (in the Bitmap level of the map at Coordinates subtitle) and you should put in the Size fields for With and Height the real dimension from real world(so if you have a brick texture you should know the real dimensions of one brick than make tha math for the size of the group of the bricks you see in the texture).

    *If you add only materials from Autodesk Materials Library than the sizes of the textures are already defined in the maps.
    Last edited by gaby424; July 18th, 2011 at 10:25 AM.

  2. #22
    Senior Member willsud's Avatar
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    Thanks gaby - that's really useful

    I met an Autodesk 3dsMax 'guru' recently and asked him about setting units from Revit to 3dsMax via fbx and he seemed to agree that setting feet and inches as the units in Revit before export to fbx was a good idea to avoid rounding errors in the conversion process (I think).

    You are suggesting that the units don't actually matter at that stage but that inches should be set in 3dsMax itself?

    He also told me that the daylight systems in Revit and 3dsMax are identical except that in Revit they contain clouds as physical objects which has an effect on rendering.
    It had not occurred to me that the Revit daylight system keeps the sun in the right position as well when brought into 3dsMax via fbx (assuming that True North has been correctly set in Revit originally).

    As you would probably already know, he suggested replacing 'missing' materials in an iRay render with Arch&Design materials.


    cheers,

  3. #23
    Moderator gaby424's Avatar
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    In revit you can work with any units when export. The fbx will allways be in feet. If you set in max feet as sistem units insted inches you will lose the real world scale of your imported building. Make a test. Make a 5 meters wall and imported in max. Before import make display units meters and system units feet to be like in fbx. Than near revit geometry make a box in max with 5meter length. You will see that your wall is shorter compared with the box. So you will have a out of scale revit geometry relative to native max dimensions. Not to mention that you will also have to use UVW Map for archdesign mats.


    At link manager i made a new preset that remove daylight sistem and any other elments. I use only geometry and lights from revit. I want to be sure that max mentalray has it's latest version components(like daylight system).

    Edit for more info:

    also arch&design materials have some options that make your render more faster (think at white artefacts points that you see on a glossy wood floor in a direct light...you can solve this kind of isues with "fast Interpolate" option ...it`s a fake trick alghoritm but it produce good results in fraction of time compared with a high settings for final gather or high numbers at global tuning parameters)

    Also, my personal opinion is that Autodesk materials are a little ugly, they are to glossy to bumpy or they not give you the taste of a real aspect. The time it takes to tweak them is the same with the time to change maps in a preset of the arch&design materials. Of course the presets have to be tweaked too(the wood presets are to reflective&glossy) but at least you have more smart options to reduce rendering times, options that are settable per materials. You can save your custom materials at custom libraries and at the next project only drag and drop materials over your model.
    Last edited by gaby424; July 18th, 2011 at 03:49 PM.

  4. #24
    Moderator gaby424's Avatar
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    Iray doesn`t suport yet materials that are combinations of other two. So that materials can be "missing". This combined materials can`t be replaced with similar versions from arch&design. Only with arch&design that have maps that simulates the combined version of original material.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaby424 View Post

    -in the same dialog press the upper button System Unit Setup and set it to be INCHES!!. Very important. This is the default 3D max system unit and it`s not smart to change it to feet(to be the same like fbx) or to other units.
    Sorry, but I have to disagree with this.

    Setting the max system units to inches, leads to incorrect material representations.
    Especially the hard coded bump maps in the Autodesk materials mess up the right scale.
    If you move a file linked object off its position and then click reset position in the modify tab,
    scales this object. 6 times smaller. (ratio feets/inches)

    see also:

    http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/maxst...evit_fbx_files

    -rpict

  6. #26
    Moderator gaby424's Avatar
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    I didn`t experience yours problems (they may be avalable). But if you do what you said or what that blog said you will find out this thing I wrote

    "If you set in max feet as sistem units insted inches you will lose the real world scale of your imported building. Make a test. Make a 5 meters wall and imported in max. Before import make display units meters and system units feet to be like in fbx. Than near revit geometry make a box in max with 5meter length. You will see that your wall is shorter compared with the box. So you will have a out of scale revit geometry relative to native max dimensions. Not to mention that you will also have to use UVW Map for archdesign mats.
    "

    This for me is bigger mess. Is like working in acad when somebody make different drawings at different scales by using the scale coomand. Is a nightmair you want to insert new objects created in max.

    And I think after you apply the UVW map real-scale-map on the revit objects you will not have the bump problem(I think).And why you move the link and then reset it? I can support that to adjust only ones the distance. You preffer to adjust all the new objects you create in max so to be to the revit scale?
    Last edited by gaby424; August 16th, 2011 at 10:11 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaby424 View Post
    "If you set in max feet as sistem units insted inches you will lose the real world scale of your imported building. Make a test. Make a 5 meters wall and imported in max. Before import make display units meters and system units feet to be like in fbx. Than near revit geometry make a box in max with 5meter length. You will see that your wall is shorter compared with the box. So you will have a out of scale revit geometry relative to native max dimensions.
    Can't reproduce this on my system. See my little test with a 10/10/10 meter box. The Max box is exact equal to the imported Revit box.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaby424 View Post
    This for me is bigger mess. Is like working in acad when somebody make different drawings at different scales by using the scale coomand. Is a nightmair you want to insert new objects created in max.
    I have big library of furniture, plants and clitter in max format, and there is no issue merging them in a flie linked Revit fbx scenes; neither with feets or inches as system units. Max converts them correctly, if they originaly were build in a reasonable scale.

    Anyway, a lot of the OOTB Autodesk materials are bad in terms of textures and even worse for uv coords, that you will replace them in max.
    Good renderings start with good materials. So in the end it's not so critical whatever system units you use, as long as your renderings look great.

    -rpict
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Export Materials in fbx to 3dsMax problems-max_revit_feet_syst_unit.jpg  

  8. #28
    Moderator gaby424's Avatar
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    Well you are right I think when i`ve made the test something was wrong . I`ve did the test again too

    BUT

    i still keep my workflow based of the materials i`ve founded that time (see picture in atachement).

    Anyway i`ll post the materials found that time because my conclusion was to balance between different sugestions. So maybe more experinced max users like you can validate ore change to another solution. At least here this method works well . I Know that you prove that my test was wrong (and i`m happy to find out), so maybe your method is good too. Anyway one of the methots should be better. So please study the links and show us the light

    http://forums.cgarchitect.com/40607-...-2011-a-2.html
    http://download.autodesk.com/us/fbx/...umber=d28e8196
    http://download.autodesk.com/us/fbx/...umber=d28e8052
    http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/maxst...evit_fbx_files
    http://www.mastering-mentalray.com/blog/?p=191 (the comments part)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Export Materials in fbx to 3dsMax problems-1.png  

  9. #29
    Moderator gaby424's Avatar
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    Im fact the highlited spot from the anterior picture where it sayes we will lose the real world scale if we change the system units in max in feet intead of the default inches, make me very unhappy. I`m thinking that maybe will affect the hardcoded distance for photons or light related stuff. As you know the intensity of a light decrease at half with the square of the distance between the light object and the lighted object. So if this distances are affected than we have to make unrealistical tuning with our lights. So we loose the real 100W ability from a revit light source. We loose the phisical correct settings for real simulations. I don`t know if the light is really afected but...that worning seems serious And i can`t apply UVW map to lights
    In your blog link you also will find a user comment that is taking about others tools affected(zoom, etc). So i`m lost

  10. #30
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    Well, not being sure myself what setting is the appropriate one, I ran a little test involving the Lightning Analyses function in MaxDesign.
    These observations were made with Revit 2012 and MaxDesign 2012.
    They may not be true for older versions, as well as issues from previous versions may not apply to the current 2012 versions.

    • as mentioned before, the bump maps looks different using feets or inches as system units in MaxDesign.
      comparing the bump map scale from the revit rendering, with the max rendering, the one with the feets as system units looks closer to the Revit original.
      (I'm not saying, this OOTB Material is looking irresistible good.)


    • as for the results of the lightning analyse, the bump map appearance influences the light intesity in a certain range.


    • applying pure diffuse materials to floor, wall and ceiling gives equal light intensities, neighter using inches or feets as system units.
      This is reasonable, since the room boundaries in display units are the same in both cases.


    hope this helps to "lighten" the matter a bit.

    -rpict



    PS:
    Quote Originally Posted by gaby424 View Post
    Im fact the highlited spot from the anterior picture where it sayes we will lose the real world scale if we change the system units in max in feet intead of the default inches, make me very unhappy.
    When I read the text from the online help: http://download.autodesk.com/us/fbx/...umber=d28e8196 right, it says just above your first marked line:
    "If you want to exchange FBX files between 3ds Max and Revit, change your System unit settings to feet to match Revit."
    However, they not recommend to change "the FBX Revit Import preset Units", which is not same thing, as the system units.
    (If you filelink your fbx, the FBX Revit Import preset Units are hidden to the user. They are only available via the import > fbx route.)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Export Materials in fbx to 3dsMax problems-revit_bump_appearance.jpg   Export Materials in fbx to 3dsMax problems-feets_illuminance.jpg   Export Materials in fbx to 3dsMax problems-inches_illuminance.jpg   Export Materials in fbx to 3dsMax problems-feets_illuminance_diffuse.jpg   Export Materials in fbx to 3dsMax problems-inches_illuminance_diffuse.jpg  


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