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Structural Concrete Column Doesn't cut CMU Wall?

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    Structural Concrete Column Doesn't cut CMU Wall?

    I'm curious if anyone else is seeing this. Create a structural (bearing) cmu (or any material other than concrete I think). Then place structural concrete columns with an edge aligned to face of wall. You'll probably end up with the column and the wall joining, and the hatch of the wall taking over the column. I don't think this has always been the case. I seem to remember 2008 or so working where the ONLY way you could get a wall and a column to join was if the materials were the same.

    I've read elsewhere the problem is the walls need to be architectural instead of structural (doesn't seem like the right way to make this work) and that the wall will display properly if it is shear instead of bearing (does but then reverts back if you change to bearing). Both of these seem like hacks. Another "solution" was to stop the walls at the face of the column. Well that does work but requires you get very careful keeping the wall from touching the column. A hack I've tested is to add a void around the column and then use the cut tool to cut the wall. This works but requires a lot of clicking to make it work properly, never mind possible issues down the road I haven't thought of.

    Anyone?

    Thanks,
    Tom
    Tom Whitehead
    BIM Herder & Revit Wrangler
    Portland, OR

    #2
    I see what you are saying...

    It's been a while since I've had to deal with this; our very first RST project (at this firm) had CMU walls and Pilaster columns. And that project was started in RST 2010. I think I just ended up Unjoining the columns from the CMU wall(s) to show a definitive Column... but my material was the same, so the hatching was not an issue.

    In your example, you can still "unjoin" the columns from the wall, but the concrete (hatch) from the column still overlaps the CMU (hatch) in the wall. You'll still need to create some sort of void pocket in your cmu wall. Maybe it could be handled in a new family (or edit your concrete column family) to get a void in there to cut the wall?

    ETA: I see you've already played with adding a void to your column family. If you end up breaking your wall at all column locations, you can use the Align tool to match up your wall ends with the sides of your column(s). If you "lock" the wall end locations when you Align them, you can move your column and your wall ends will stay attached.
    Last edited by LeanneZ; February 28, 2012, 12:35 PM.
    Leanne Zaras, CDT, LEED AP
    AutoCAD 2010 Certified Professional / Revit Architecture 2012 Certified Professional / Revit Structure 2015 Certified Professional
    ACAD2021, RST2014-2021 / Windows 10, 64-bit

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      #3
      I have been playing with voids in column family, but ended up just breaking wall, trimming it (or aligning) to the column and disallow join if necessary.
      That way I'm sure that all quantities are correct.
      Voids in the structural family are cutting structural member itself. Half baked solution would be to use Wall based generic template and set it to Structural category, but I'm still not sure about that.

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        #4
        Well, what I've done so far is created a concrete column family from scratch, added a void that is slightly larger than the column (1" on all sides) and made sure it didn't cut the column. Then when you load it in and use it you can use the cut command to cut voids out of the wall. This seems to work ok. I haven't used it in a project yet but I'm afraid I'll be testing it pretty soon. I submitted a trouble ticket with Autodesk and they seem to be aware of the problem. Curious to hear what their official response will be.
        Tom Whitehead
        BIM Herder & Revit Wrangler
        Portland, OR

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          #5
          Just an update. You can indeed embed a void into a column family and that can then cut a wall. Unfortunately it will randomly add an additional line on the plans. There could be a bug somewhere in my template but I think the problem is due to the fact there is no visibility setting or object style for voids (I mean why should they show up in the first place?). Here's the family if someone wants to play with it.

          Like I said the results seem variable. If I edit the family (I have 4 different families in this project that need the void) then overwrite them in the project it will look fine for a while. Then I'll see these extra orange or dashed lines at the voids in random place just out of nowhere. Pretty frustrating. :banghead:
          Attached Files
          Tom Whitehead
          BIM Herder & Revit Wrangler
          Portland, OR

          Comment


            #6
            sorry if this is difficult to interpret, but i will try to add clipping images to further clarify the process.
            Moreover, this is my first post and like member, TRWhitehead, I have been a long time lurker on the BIM/REVIT forums. I will apologize firsthand if i am not following forum standards and etc. Regardless, I recently started at a concrete structural office and its completely a new trade to add to my previous experiences (which are 3 years in arch, and 1 year in MEP, all in revit). Over the years I have been finding several hacks which visually fix Revit to match what is desired.

            My issue was also the structural cmu walls would cut my structural concrete columns, instead of the other way around.
            Now with joining, unjoining, cutting, aligning, over and over, then trying in reverse and eventually, deleting elements to restart a clean modeling process (for the sake of best practice), I found one hack to fix my, and members, TRWhitehead's, exact dilemma.

            In the scenario of already having tons to structural columns and walls in model,

            I would select wall element.
            In the properties box, there is structural box checked.
            I would uncheck said structural box. (reverting wall to be purely architectural<?>)
            Then I would unjoin struc. concrete column from wall.
            Visually, it would revert to default settings and have lines of elements interferring/overlapping each other.
            Then I would join the elements back to each other.
            Then, I can clearly see the wall cutting around my struct. column.
            Lastly, I would select wall and check Structural box.

            Now, reading this thread, i understand there are revit versions dedicated to MEP, struct, and Arch.
            I am currently in REVIT 2014 and it is possible that this post will be completely irrelevent to the issue at hand. But by the possible chance that I can be conducive to not only "tricking" Revit to do what it should really do (which is cut and join whatever user should want to), but also, it can show that there are such hierarchies in Revit itself, being directly relevant to construction.
            Structure will always dictate the locations of columns and retaining/bearing walls, especially over architectural walls in construction docs.
            Is it possible that Revit also contains such hierarchies? (sorry, i know this is now irrelevent to OP)
            Therefore since (in CD phase) structure dictates the elements shown, and architecture must be set after, even if architectural elements (ie. columns and walls) are really structural(in revit to user)architecture elements must be set to structural after they are modeled via properties.

            Thank you. (sorry i didnt add clipping yets)

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