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    Workflow & timing within a project

    Gordon mentioned something in another post that got me thinking:

    Way too many times I have seen that used as a crutch in early DD to make the set look more complete, usually with teams or PMs that are new to Revit and feel like they are behind.
    Our Revit implementation is still in it's infancy and so far only my boss and I have done anything in Revit outside of school and it's been interesting. The one comment he makes most, other than a lot of swearing because he over constrained or doesn't know how to do something, is that it seems a lot slower. I know the workflow and timing of document phases gets shifted quite a bit but sometimes I have a hard time justifying it to him. In his mind he is behind getting a schematic set out to a client because he is having to do tasks like model EIFS trim & soffits on the exterior where before it was just linework and was pretty easy to copy/paste from one element to another. In this particular case it is another hotel so there is a brand provided standard / set of drawings that our building needs to come close to. Once it is into CD it should fly, at least until we hit annotations (haven't done much yet...) but I don't know if the time shift sits well with him. Learning curve aside I don't think he is behind necessarily but from a purely schematic standpoint he is probably in a different place than if he was using CAD.

    I guess I'm looking for some general guidance / advice on how to approach it with him and how to assuage some of his worries.

    Thanks- :beer::beer:
    Revit for newbies - A starting point for RFO


    chad
    BEER: Better, Efficient, Elegant, Repeatable.

    #2
    Most converts i know spent ten years or more getting as fast as they were in CAD. Then they get in Revit, and on the second project, theyre mad if they arent faster.

    I was better than everyone around me in ACA, back when i used to use it. And if i had to race my old self, i would absolutely lay waste to the old me, doing work in Revit.

    But, it took some time to get there. If he is fighting with constraints in the project environment, tell him to stop locking stuff. If hes frustrated about not having EIFS profiles, tell him to start investing in the template and office library of profiles and sweeps.

    If hes complaining that it takes longer to build a BIM than to draft Linework... Send him back to AutoCAD, because he doesnt get it.
    Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
    @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email

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      #3
      There is a lot to be said on the topic, and likely a lot will. But one approach that might help turn the tide...

      Take that model where you are doing all this detailed modeling in SD to produce the same old same old 2D drawings. Make a 3D view. If your materials are done well, turn on Consistent Colors. Now turn on shadows and take the intensity down to 20% or so, and turn on Ambient Occlusion. Print a copy, show it to the client and tell them they can have views like that of the typical guest room, lobby, restaurant dining room and entry. That "brand standard" just might get revised. And just image how hard the same level of service would be in Acad/SketchUp. Now go to a meeting, agree on some changes to the design, address them and reprint those same 3D views immediatly. Doing that in Acad/SketchUp just crossed the line into realistically impossible.

      Short answer, if all you are producing in Revit is the same deliverables you where before, you are missing out on a huge potential, and possibly spending even more time doing it. Only when you can provide something beyond that old deliverable does Revit really start to pay dividends. In better design because the reality of the building is better understood, and better communication with everyone involved.

      Gordon
      Pragmatic Praxis

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
        If hes complaining that it takes longer to build a BIM than to draft Linework... Send him back to AutoCAD, because he doesnt get it.
        AMEN!

        I'm struggling with that right now at my current office. I'm on loan for a few months that I thought were going to be about setting them up to be successful in Revit. Unfortunately, by the time I got here, they had all but made up their minds that Revit wasn't cutting it and it all comes back to the perception of how fast/slow the program is. To be fair to them, they where using a remote server to host their central file while working with an associate architect and there was some serious lag but that's not Revit's fault (though it may have exasperated the problem).

        It's a paradigm shift and, like all change, is awkward at first. I think the more we help each other here and at AU/RTC/etc. the better it's going to get for all of us.
        Greg McDowell Jr
        about.me/GMcDowellJr

        Comment


          #5
          The most important think is to stay focused on deliverable. The RedLine of my recommended workflow is
          1 - Sheet List Scheduling View
          2 - Work on Dragged and Dropped Documentation Views directly from Sheets Views in the project browser.Start by doing 100% of the model with Generic Elements (Duplicate Generic and name them correctly but not define the internal properties neither geometrical modeling only the visible size dimension)
          3 - Optimize the process for publishing and/or printing (Saved Printing and Publishing Settings).
          5 - Add Temporary Working Views as needed to check the model but delete them as soon as possible (keeping performance)
          6 - Increase the element information, properties and annotations of Documentation and Scheduling Views only
          Last but the most important : Detail more and more the elements according the scale of the deliverable view and phase of project delivery but not more than needed per view. You will see that a lot of details can be done once and with drafting and constrained elements.
          Hope it helps. Courage.

          Comment


            #6
            Couple points I'd like to make on this...

            2 - Sounds like you're advocating working directly on the sheets via Activate View. If so I don't think that's a good idea. It's fine initially but as your views grow in complexity the time it takes to regen the other views your not working on quickly kills you. I think it's fine to work from the subset beneath the Sheet in the PB though... then again, good naming and Browser organization, along with working views, can go a long way.

            2 - You also suggest working with generic elements first which I think is fine provided you don't already know something about the project. I think it's better to say that you should model as much as you know, or believe you know, about the design at any one point in time. I can guarantee that 95% of my interior walls will always be 3 5/8" metal stud with a layer of 5/8" gyp on both sides... might as well get it in the model.

            5 - Not sure about deleting working views. If you create new types and filter them out of your documentation views there shouldn't be a problem leaving them in. Odds are you'll need them again anyway. Also, I question the need for working views (though I'm on the fence)... if you need them to model then your contractor will probably need them to build... right?

            6 - The more I get into Revit the more I want to model my details... or at least a lot more than before. I used to think that Revit generally made a model that could stand on it's on at about 1/4"... maybe 3/8". Now I want the model to hold up at 3/4" which equates to more modeling efforts.

            Of course, as Dennis Miller used to say, that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.
            Greg McDowell Jr
            about.me/GMcDowellJr

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by GMcDowellJr View Post
              2 - Sounds like you're advocating working directly on the sheets via Activate View. If so I don't think that's a good idea. It's fine initially but as your views grow in complexity the time it takes to regen the other views your not working on quickly kills you. I think it's fine to work from the subset beneath the Sheet in the PB though... then again, good naming and Browser organization, along with working views, can go a long way.
              Yes. In the complete process, documentation view are also identified with parameters used for Project Browser Type definition.

              Originally posted by GMcDowellJr View Post
              2 - You also suggest working with generic elements first which I think is fine provided you don't already know something about the project. I think it's better to say that you should model as much as you know, or believe you know, about the design at any one point in time. I can guarantee that 95% of my interior walls will always be 3 5/8" metal stud with a layer of 5/8" gyp on both sides... might as well get it in the model.
              Yep, it's exactly my suggestion: taking time to define type specification is directly related with percentage of guarantee. I fully agree with you.

              Originally posted by GMcDowellJr View Post
              5 - Not sure about deleting working views. If you create new types and filter them out of your documentation views there shouldn't be a problem leaving them in. Odds are you'll need them again anyway. Also, I question the need for working views (though I'm on the fence)... if you need them to model then your contractor will probably need them to build... right?
              I thought about sections and 3D view (oriented to temporary callout view).

              Originally posted by GMcDowellJr View Post
              6 - The more I get into Revit the more I want to model my details... or at least a lot more than before. I used to think that Revit generally made a model that could stand on it's on at about 1/4"... maybe 3/8". Now I want the model to hold up at 3/4" which equates to more modeling efforts.
              I'm not familiar with inches. But I used to define an agreement with the project manager about the smallest length of lines for a dedicated scale and the line-weight value. I saw so many detailed models which become a beautiful black ink stain because of the scale.

              Comment


                #8
                FWIW I went through about a year of pain while I learned revit.

                But being one that never dumps old technology I ran it alongside AitoCAD for a year - often doing just small en-suite elements in revit while i did construction detailing ain ACAD. As i become more familiar with the annotation tools in Revit I used some basic modelling as a tool on which to hang details - basically giving me all the project without the xrefs, and now I am more proficient at modelling I model more, but still annotate lots.

                i think that the earlier stages are only slower when we get survay data in and want to start work as I have to model the existing condition - but once past that Revit is tons faster - even if I never show client a 3D view.

                Quite often I will do a composite - if I don't need to change an existing elevation, or just a bit, then i will load (link) the cad survey drawing in as an elevation - so when I look at the revit elevation it is there in linework and looks no different to how we used to work, but the modelled bits are native revit.

                Took me 2 years befor I hated doing anything in ACAD (which I now do becaus it is SO slow compared to revit!).

                However - I still do LOTS of placeholder families to get drawings done, and then model the 3D stuff at my leisure.

                James

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                  #9
                  The difference for me is in the behind the scenes stuff (I'm a curtain wall detailer): curtain panel (glass) size lists, aluminum extrusion optimization and cut lists (exported from Revit and done in Access via Excel), anchor and attachment clip lists, flashing lists, etc etc. Stuff that could be derived from .dwg files but only with a lot of time and energy. Now it's all just a part of the package. I'm charging the same for submittal packages today as I did 5 years ago, I'm making more money, and my customers are getting information that saves them a ton of time. Revit has created a win-win situation for me and that makes me a happy boy

                  I will say that I still do my curtain wall details in Acad just because of the level of detail required for what I do but it's becoming more and more painful every day.

                  Today is my 2 year anniversary. I opened Revit Architecture 2010 for the first time two years ago today. What a ride!
                  I'm retired, if you don't like it, go around!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
                    Most converts i know spent ten years or more getting as fast as they were in CAD. Then they get in Revit, and on the second project, theyre mad if they arent faster.
                    ...
                    But, it took some time to get there. If he is fighting with constraints in the project environment, tell him to stop locking stuff. If hes frustrated about not having EIFS profiles, tell him to start investing in the template and office library of profiles and sweeps.

                    If hes complaining that it takes longer to build a BIM than to draft Linework... Send him back to AutoCAD, because he doesnt get it.
                    Good point about the time spent in CAD - it didn't even occur to me. I'll mention that next time.

                    I think he has learned his lesson about contstaints after locking everything under the sun he has had a bear of a time making small adjustments which doesn't help the production but the lesson seems to have finally sunk in.

                    I think he gets it on the grand scheme but when it comes down to nuts and bolts it goes back to your first point.

                    Originally posted by Gordon Price View Post
                    And just image how hard the same level of service would be in Acad/SketchUp. Now go to a meeting, agree on some changes to the design, address them and reprint those same 3D views immediatly. Doing that in Acad/SketchUp just crossed the line into realistically impossible.

                    Short answer, if all you are producing in Revit is the same deliverables you where before, you are missing out on a huge potential, and possibly spending even more time doing it. Only when you can provide something beyond that old deliverable does Revit really start to pay dividends. In better design because the reality of the building is better understood, and better communication with everyone involved.
                    We have done a couple schematic models for clients recently in Revit rather than SU and he has been really impressed with them and the process - especially making changes. One of them even won us a project :beer: The trick is getting him from clunky and slow to at least semi-proficient so the benefits really show up.

                    Originally posted by jameshs View Post
                    But being one that never dumps old technology I ran it alongside AitoCAD for a year - often doing just small en-suite elements in revit while i did construction detailing ain ACAD. As i become more familiar with the annotation tools in Revit I used some basic modelling as a tool on which to hang details - basically giving me all the project without the xrefs, and now I am more proficient at modelling I model more, but still annotate lots.

                    i think that the earlier stages are only slower when we get survay data in and want to start work as I have to model the existing condition - but once past that Revit is tons faster - even if I never show client a 3D view.

                    Quite often I will do a composite - if I don't need to change an existing elevation, or just a bit, then i will load (link) the cad survey drawing in as an elevation - so when I look at the revit elevation it is there in linework and looks no different to how we used to work, but the modelled bits are native revit.

                    Took me 2 years befor I hated doing anything in ACAD (which I now do becaus it is SO slow compared to revit!).

                    However - I still do LOTS of placeholder families to get drawings done, and then model the 3D stuff at my leisure.
                    I'll mention that to him also. I know for the hotel I'm working on right now a lot of our interior elevations are just references to CAD files since they are already done and it would take time that we don't have to model casework details and what not.

                    I had to do something in CAD yesterday and if I had hair I would have pulled it all out. So clunky...

                    Thanks for the feedback so far
                    Revit for newbies - A starting point for RFO


                    chad
                    BEER: Better, Efficient, Elegant, Repeatable.

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