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There is something seriously wrong with the way Revit handles groups

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    #1

    There is something seriously wrong with the way Revit handles groups

    Inadvertent (and sometimes mysterious) automatic group changes are allowed - i.e. for one example, things in groups can autojoin to other objects (i.e. structural braces will snap to members outside the group) added to the model while not in group edit mode, or even objects inside other groups when you copy one group next to another, also while not in group edit mode.

    Then if you make a future change (i.e. move the one group away from the group it was previously next to or change the spacing) and the join breaks - group change only allowed in group edit mode error. Can't make the change without killing the group.

    I will never use groups again. So much wasted time cleaning up Revit allowing automatic changes to the groups from changes happening while not editing the group. This is not how it should work -- even Revit admits this when it gives you an error that group changes are only allowed in group edit mode. I will now have to redo everything as linked models because all my arrayed groups are broken from things autojoining together. I will never make complex groups again, they are not truly locked when you aren't editing them.
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    #2
    Be prepared for a whole host of other issues.

    FWIW -- best practice would have you disallowing joins to elements outside of the model group
    Greg McDowell Jr
    about.me/GMcDowellJr

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      #3
      Originally posted by GMcDowellJr View Post
      FWIW -- best practice would have you disallowing joins to elements outside of the model group
      This is manually setting disallow joins on thousands of objects for my project (something difficult to check as well and easy to overlook) -- it is not a reasonable workaround.

      I did another project as linked models and it worked great.

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        #4
        Originally posted by Peter1979 View Post
        This is manually setting disallow joins on thousands of objects for my project (something difficult to check as well and easy to overlook) -- it is not a reasonable workaround.

        I did another project as linked models and it worked great.
        There is challenges both ways links and groups. And advantages each. Pick your method on the project requirements not on your last project.

        As far as the amount of items to disjoin, it probable is less than you think. If you have 200 instances of a group, and 2 walls in that group that intersect elements outside the group that would need to be disallowed from join. The math might say 200groups *2walls *2ends = 800elements. Though in reality you are only updating 2 walls not 800 elements.


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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          #5
          I am sorry for your trouble. In my experience, the downsides of using links outweigh the disadvantages of using groups for our work (multifamily residential). As mentioned, I think the cardinal rule of using groups is to never constrain something inside the group to something outside the group. This rule mostly applies to hosted elements, not necessarily to wall joins, although there are exceptions (like grouping curtain walls, or structural braces in your case). One thing that I do know is that walls in links will never clean up with walls in the host model, while walls in groups will - within limits.
          Neither approach is perfect and as long as you understand the constraints, pick the method that best fits your workflow and solves the most problems for you. Being flexible about the approach and recognizing that sometimes the method may need to change as the project progresses will make your life better. Links and groups can both make your life miserable, so there is no harm in keeping your options open. I am down for less misery.

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            #6
            Originally posted by jsnyder View Post
            I am sorry for your trouble. In my experience, the downsides of using links outweigh the disadvantages of using groups for our work (multifamily residential). As mentioned, I think the cardinal rule of using groups is to never constrain something inside the group to something outside the group. This rule mostly applies to hosted elements, not necessarily to wall joins, although there are exceptions (like grouping curtain walls, or structural braces in your case). One thing that I do know is that walls in links will never clean up with walls in the host model, while walls in groups will - within limits.
            Neither approach is perfect and as long as you understand the constraints, pick the method that best fits your workflow and solves the most problems for you. Being flexible about the approach and recognizing that sometimes the method may need to change as the project progresses will make your life better. Links and groups can both make your life miserable, so there is no harm in keeping your options open. I am down for less misery.
            I remember the time (2007) i thought Links were the answers to the things that annoyed be about Groups. Man, how wrong i was.

            I also remember the time in 2014, that i helped set up a Multi-Fam project team with Groups, only to have one of them think they "knew better," and they went and replaced all the Groups with Links. Fast forward a few weeks, and im having to talk one of the architects down off the ledge (figuratively) because she was in the office on a Saturday, in tears, because the model was so wrecked from all the Links, that it was just endless spinwheel of death. Took me two entire days to fix that damn model.

            Links. Yuck.
            Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
            @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email

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              #7
              It's my observation that model performance and user experience with regard to linked files has degraded with each new release. Everything else has improved.

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                #8
                Originally posted by Peter1979 View Post
                This is manually setting disallow joins on thousands of objects for my project (something difficult to check as well and easy to overlook) -- it is not a reasonable workaround.

                I did another project as linked models and it worked great.
                I made a Dynamo graph to disallow joins on selected walls or wall types. The wall types version doesn't work with groups (yet?) but both are way faster than doing it manually. It does both sides, however, so not always the right solution to the problem.

                I wouldn't call it a workaround. Just something that you need to do if you want model groups to perform well.
                Greg McDowell Jr
                about.me/GMcDowellJr

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                  #9
                  Oh, and to join elements that need it, check out RAAPS Auto Join All -- https://apps.autodesk.com/RVT/en/Det...ng=en&os=Win64
                  Greg McDowell Jr
                  about.me/GMcDowellJr

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Mengelmn View Post
                    There is challenges both ways links and groups. And advantages each. Pick your method on the project requirements not on your last project.

                    As far as the amount of items to disjoin, it probable is less than you think. If you have 200 instances of a group, and 2 walls in that group that intersect elements outside the group that would need to be disallowed from join. The math might say 200groups *2walls *2ends = 800elements. Though in reality you are only updating 2 walls not 800 elements.
                    The groups have hundreds of structural elements in each group. And the project requirements are the same as my last project.

                    Originally posted by Steve_Stafford View Post
                    It's my observation that model performance and user experience with regard to linked files has degraded with each new release. Everything else has improved.
                    Large amounts of groups or linked models both kill performance IME. This model I made with groups is extremely slow and results in huge amounts of wasted time watching the spinning wheel, no different than the similar linked project model. But unloading links seems to work better to improve performance than worksets, and working in the independent linked files is much faster.

                    Originally posted by jsnyder View Post
                    One thing that I do know is that walls in links will never clean up with walls in the host model, while walls in groups will - within limits.
                    I don't want the things to join -- that is the point. These groups need to be completely independent from the model.

                    I understand for many purposes groups are best, but not my current project where I need large independent groups of elements, it isn't.
                    Last edited by Peter1979; September 20, 2018, 01:14 PM.

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