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A note for MEP designers to help coordinating projects

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    #1

    A note for MEP designers to help coordinating projects

    Maybe we can spur up some discussions. There are two things I look at from a set of contract documents, and 9 times out of 10 they're a problem.

    #1 - Upsize your ductwork for internal liner, and apply the liner. Add external duct wrap to duct accordingly. Account for an additional 4" overall for flanges of larger or medium pressure ductwork.

    #2 - Slope your roof drain piping.

    Regarding #1, here are some tips: hide Liner and Insulation categories on your sheets, using these extra items in working views to help coordinate areas better. Use a "Free Area" parameter for duct tags to keep the duct sizes correct for lined ductwork.

    In recent years I've seen some MEP firms produce some decently coordinated projects. While the attempts are very much appreciated, these two items above still wreck shop in tightly coordinated areas. Making the above two items an absolute and mandatory design standard in an MEP office can - and will - reduce so much RFI and change order issues during the CA process. When you run duct and simply spec the insulation requirements you're simply setting yourself up for failure. When you run roof drain piping horizontally and don't slope it, again, you're setting yourself up for failure. These few items are literally easy-buttons in Revit.

    Hope these tips are found useful. I've seen too many projects, with a decently coordinated Revit model, go through extensive RFI processes and angry architects due to dropping ceilings and shifting walls. It's pretty much almost every project. Architects, make note as well - you guys and gals may want to require these items from your MEP firm if you are in the position to set such a standard among the team.

    -TZ
    Tannar Z. Frampton ™
    Frampton & Associates, Inc.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Originally posted by tzframpton View Post
    #2 - Slope your roof drain piping.
    ...extensive RFI processes and angry architects due to dropping ceilings and shifting walls. It's pretty much almost every project. Architects, make note as well - you guys and gals may want to require these items from your MEP firm if you are in the position to set such a standard among the team.
    Holy crap yes. We do a lot of hotels and the drains on the roofs frequently start in the center and slope along the corridor. 1/8" to 1/4" per foot over 150 feet is a big drop.
    Revit for newbies - A starting point for RFO

    chad
    BEER: Better, Efficient, Elegant, Repeatable.

    Comment

      #3
      I'm reviewing models for a client, this week. No sloped drainage piping = don't work with these engineers again.

      Sent from my Phablet. Please excuse typos... and bad ideas.

      Aaron Maller
      Director
      Parallax Team, Inc.
      Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
      @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email

      Comment

        #4
        1. Define, document and share your system classifications as soon as you can
        2. Apply correct (or at least halfway-decent approximated) materials to your elements
        3. Stop modelling plinths and other 'placeholders' just ask the appropriate (responsible) party to do so
        4. Do not undercook your void requirements to win your client's favour
        5. Do not overcook your void requirements to make your life easier
        6. Leave the .dwg guy you found on Autodesk Seek in your downloads folder, or better yet your recycle bin.
        7. Never export your .nwc from a coarse-level view (nor local workshared copy)
        8. Remove disconnected/floating/orphaned elements (or at least after the third time of being asked)
        9. Develop your (model) work with all consultant (model) work in consideration (i.e. loaded)
        10. Ensure you are working to the latest (shared) consultant (model) information
        11. Model key elements smaller than 50mm
        12. Strip extraneous fluff from your families; no one needs the face-numerals of a gauge dial or the screw-thread of a sprinkler in 3D
        13. Place small power items according to set-out, not "by system diagram"
        14. Ensure your light fittings face the correct way (check your reference plane hosts aren't flipped)
        15. Do not hide behind "We don't do set-out, that's the installer's job" to excuse slapdashery
        16. (try and) put the project before your profit
        17. Be honest about how much of your (modelling) work is off-shored/out-sourced
        18. Invite your "technicians" to the conversation
        19. Pull your finger out
        20. Play nice.

        Comment

          #5
          Tannar, it's funny that you mention duct lining, I recently brought this up at my office. Our CAD standard was to have a general note on our cover sheet stating that the nominal duct size was the inside clear area of the duct, meaning that when the duct was shown on the plan with lining the sheet metal guy was supposed to upsize the duct to maintain that inside free area. A 10"x10" duct with 1" of lining would therefore actually be 12"x12"

          As I tried to explain, Revit actually models the lining and it impacts the duct velocity and friction. Revit will take that 10"x10" and make it 12"x12" when the sizing tool is used. That note on our cover sheet will then direct the sheet metal guy to make the duct 14"x14." Of course, my bosses just stared at me like I was a clown and said "just do it the way we've always done it." When Revit causes a change to our design standards they don't want to hear it. CAD is King, even though 90% of our work is in Revit now.

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Necro99 View Post
            CAD is King, even though 90% of our work is in Revit now.
            It's true in the MEP realm and it's very unfortunate. All of these tools at your disposal and people/companies still take the shortcuts... and the worst part, they justify it.

            -TZ
            Tannar Z. Frampton ™
            Frampton & Associates, Inc.

            Comment

              #7
              Originally posted by tzframpton View Post
              It's true in the MEP realm and it's very unfortunate. All of these tools at your disposal and people/companies still take the shortcuts... and the worst part, they justify it.

              -TZ
              it is part of a much bigger issue in AEC, which has to do with fee structures being incredibly low relative to the work that is actually required. It seems to me that way too many owners only look at the initial dollar amount for the project (bid price), and never take into consideration the long term effects of things like crappy insulation or field coordination issues. :crazy:
              Revit for newbies - A starting point for RFO

              chad
              BEER: Better, Efficient, Elegant, Repeatable.

              Comment

                #8
                I friend of mine (God rest his soul) was an MEP BIM Mgr. & he worked on a matrix that concluded that for every hour of coordination spent in the model (meaning modeling things right & verifying surrounds) it saved 10hrs of field rework. So imagine a crew or 2 in the field having to cut out pieces & gobble up more materials & the associated labor costs because avoiding virtual coordination while designing -vs- spending the time necessary to properly Build the Building Virtually to address potential conflicts with other disciplines....

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Necro99 View Post
                  "...the way we've always done it."
                  I quit my last job because this was a common phrase and a deep-rooted way of thinking.

                  Originally posted by cftrevizo View Post
                  ...every hour of coordination spent in the model (meaning modeling things right & verifying surrounds) it saved 10hrs of field rework. So imagine a crew or 2 in the field having to cut out pieces & gobble up more materials & the associated labor costs because avoiding virtual coordination while designing -vs- spending the time necessary to properly Build the Building Virtually to address potential conflicts with other disciplines....
                  A conversation I had with an engineer yesterday went like this:
                  Me: Your mono truss are too low and sticking through the wall.
                  Him: Well what does the detail show?
                  Me: Your detail shows something different from how it's modeled.
                  Him: Well does the detail work?
                  Me: I don't know. Unless I have a structural model that aligns with mine, and structural details that align with the structural model, I have no confidence in a detail working.

                  This detail in question affects 90% of the steel on the project. No, I will not be provided TOS elevations based on current info.
                  Owen Drafting Technologies
                  Kyle Owen - Owner

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