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    Level of Detail in Architecture

    Hello all,

    Could you please tell me what the Level of Detail (LOD) means in architecture?
    For example if I have a table in the LOD400 I would represent the bolts?

    Thank you in advance!

    Regards,
    Maria

    #2
    LOD and LOI are two important contractual factors when bidding on jobs.

    LOD as you mentioned is level of detail, this refers to graphic detail

    LOI is level of information, and this refers to the data associated with the object.

    So I could have a LOD 100 and LOI 500.
    Meaning, I only have to show a rectangular volume, but associated with that volume is enough data to be used for facility management

    In my opinion LOI is more important than LOD as it is often this that can take you well outside your normal responsibilites. Also for my discipline "structure" LOD 350 is pretty much already achieved with out of the box components, for architects and MEP, LOD has more impact on their family creation, but LOI is the real killer and will eat your budget up quickly if you underestimated the time needed to do the data entry, and also creation of parameters for your families across the board.
    Last edited by Karalon10; August 31, 2017, 07:44 AM.

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      #3
      Karalon,

      Thank you very much!

      Comment


        #4
        bim forum has the spec and you can read it there
        https://bimforum.org/lod/
        Scott D. Brown, AIA | Senior Project Manager | Beck Group

        Comment


          #5
          FWIW, the bigger issue you need to resolve is:

          1. What LOD is being asked for on a project, by the client or whomever you work for, and- in relation to this question:
          2. WHOS definition of LOD?

          As Scott mentioned, BIMForum has one. So does the AIA. So do many firms (have their own, that they write). So do many Building Owners. So do many Owners Reps.

          If ANYONE tells you there is "one answer" to what LOD means for architecture, they dont know what the hell they are talking about. If someone tells you they want "LOD 300" on a project, your next immediately question is "Whos definition of LOD 300?" If they dont know the answer, or if the answer is ambiguous like "You know, industry standard 300..." then raise a red flag.

          Thats how people end up arguing over whats in a model and what isnt.
          Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
          @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
            FWIW, the bigger issue you need to resolve is:

            1. What LOD is being asked for on a project, by the client or whomever you work for, and- in relation to this question:
            2. WHOS definition of LOD?

            As Scott mentioned, BIMForum has one. So does the AIA. So do many firms (have their own, that they write). So do many Building Owners. So do many Owners Reps.

            If ANYONE tells you there is "one answer" to what LOD means for architecture, they dont know what the hell they are talking about. If someone tells you they want "LOD 300" on a project, your next immediately question is "Whos definition of LOD 300?" If they dont know the answer, or if the answer is ambiguous like "You know, industry standard 300..." then raise a red flag.

            Thats how people end up arguing over whats in a model and what isnt.
            I'm working on a project that after being involved for over 3 months I get a BEP written by the Contractor which required the project curtain wall to be modeled to LOD500. I was a bit shocked so I asked for a GTM with my client and the Contractor and I asked them "what do you consider LOD500 and where did you get that definition?" I was told that in their opinion, curtain wall modeling was ALWAYS done to LOD500 and so that's what they require and could cite no source for that information. So, rather than fight it out with them I sent them a sample of my typical curtain wall modeling which contains enough built in information to determine extrusion lengths, glass sizes, anchor types and quantities, door sizes, hardware types, etc. I would consider this modeling to be probably LOD300 per BIMForum standards. They looked at the model and said "that's great, exactly what we wanted". So, I guess one persons definition of LOD can be quite different from anothers. Now I'm pondering how to cover my a** for later down the line...
            Last edited by Dave Jones; September 1, 2017, 05:11 PM. Reason: spelling
            I'm retired, if you don't like it, go around!

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              #7
              Thats exactly right. Im super glad that in THAT case it worked out to your advantage (they are happy with your model, and thats awesome) but there are MANY things that went wrong in that interaction, that everyone can learn from:

              1. The time to discuss LOD and model requirements is BEFORE the model is underway. Ive been on projects where i discussed my BIM standards with the client, and the client agreed to them. Then a few months later (because the client had hired an "Owners BIM rep as a service" suddenly a third party showed up and wanted to change the BIM requirements. Well.... Too bad. The time to do that had come and gone. This is why- even though people say its *over the top* i encourage more companies to put their BIM Execution Documents or BIM Standards INSIDE the contract. Otherwise, these debates rage on.

              2. I would agree with you, that what is probablty in your model is what most BIM Spec's would call an LOD 300 (or LOD350 for the asinine standard out there that actually differentiates between being COn Doc ready and 3D Coordination ready, which is the problem with the whole damn industry in my mind). I dont say that as a slam on your model, but Revit cant even really DO anything above LOD300/350 for Curtain Wall and Storefront. The way it models makes it impossible.

              3. How to cover your ass down the line? Have YOUR OWN set of LOD's or Modeling Standards, that explicity state what is and what is not modeled, in your typical project workflow. If someone says they want *LOD XXX* ask them what XXX is. If they have an answer, ask them to sit and compare the two docs, and see whats different and if its a dealbreaker (and you may find yours are a more detailed standard than theirs, and they wont have an issue). If you ask what XXX is and they DONT have an answer or its ambiguous? Say "Well, since you arent clear on what LOD500 is, here are the modeling standards all of my projects are done to. See if this meets your needs, as this is what we work to." And start your dialogue there.

              Too many people want to posture and sound cool, so they through around LOD. Frankly, LOD is a freaking waste of everyones time. My new BIM spec doesnt even have LOD in it. Its just "This is whats required, and this is when its required." No different levels needed.
              Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
              @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
                Thats exactly right. Im super glad that in THAT case it worked out to your advantage (they are happy with your model, and thats awesome) but there are MANY things that went wrong in that interaction, that everyone can learn from:

                1. The time to discuss LOD and model requirements is BEFORE the model is underway. Ive been on projects where i discussed my BIM standards with the client, and the client agreed to them. Then a few months later (because the client had hired an "Owners BIM rep as a service" suddenly a third party showed up and wanted to change the BIM requirements. Well.... Too bad. The time to do that had come and gone. This is why- even though people say its *over the top* i encourage more companies to put their BIM Execution Documents or BIM Standards INSIDE the contract. Otherwise, these debates rage on.

                2. I would agree with you, that what is probablty in your model is what most BIM Spec's would call an LOD 300 (or LOD350 for the asinine standard out there that actually differentiates between being COn Doc ready and 3D Coordination ready, which is the problem with the whole damn industry in my mind). I dont say that as a slam on your model, but Revit cant even really DO anything above LOD300/350 for Curtain Wall and Storefront. The way it models makes it impossible.

                3. How to cover your ass down the line? Have YOUR OWN set of LOD's or Modeling Standards, that explicity state what is and what is not modeled, in your typical project workflow. If someone says they want *LOD XXX* ask them what XXX is. If they have an answer, ask them to sit and compare the two docs, and see whats different and if its a dealbreaker (and you may find yours are a more detailed standard than theirs, and they wont have an issue). If you ask what XXX is and they DONT have an answer or its ambiguous? Say "Well, since you arent clear on what LOD500 is, here are the modeling standards all of my projects are done to. See if this meets your needs, as this is what we work to." And start your dialogue there.

                Too many people want to posture and sound cool, so they through around LOD. Frankly, LOD is a freaking waste of everyones time. My new BIM spec doesnt even have LOD in it. Its just "This is whats required, and this is when its required." No different levels needed.
                while I agree with all of that, as you have told me in the past in other threads, "your situation is different" and in this case I'm the lowly peon that works for a sub who works for a contractor who works for an owner. So, by the time that I get the input of a project BEP I'm 75% done and there's nothing I can do, both because of the schedule and because I don't get to communicate directly (normally) with the people who publish the BEP. Your best advice in the middle of all of that is that I should develop my own modeling standards and specifications and make that a part of my proposals for projects. I'm going to work on that...thanks!
                I'm retired, if you don't like it, go around!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Yeah. What im saying in YOUR case is: Have that conversation with the Sub (YOUR client) before YOU start modeling. Then if someone comes in LATER and wants a change to what you are modeling, there is a conversation for YOU to have with the SUB, and for THEM to deal with, with THEIR client.

                  Dave to Sub: Here is the standard im modeling to, since you dont have one.
                  Sub: Okay.

                  (two months later)

                  GC or Owner: Here are the standards you need to model to.
                  Dave to Sub: CHANGE ORDER.

                  Their problem, lol.
                  Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
                  @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Even with full agreement on LOD, the situation is not foolproof. On my current project, we had a clear understanding and written brief that the 2015 BIMForum version of the LOD Specification was to be used by all disciplines. Unfortunately, someone also wrote into the specs that BSRIA guidelines were to be used for MEP information and these seem to be more onerous and require more design development than needed to meet the LOD requirement. Cue huge dispute between MEP consultant and MEP sub-contractor.

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