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Painting families with a finish parameter...Autodesk...please fix

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    Painting families with a finish parameter...Autodesk...please fix

    I started a similar thread on another forum and later found the subject covered in a post on Autodesk Knowledge Network. In a nutshell, the concept is to use Revit's improving presentation capabilities AND avoid having to create a bunch of redundant materials that display surface and sections correctly. One is currently able to assign a material to an object (steel for a steel beam for example) that cuts as expected with the proper hatch pattern. One can also apply a surface finish using the paint tool. This way you can apply the same color to different objects and not worry about how it cuts in section, thereby avoiding the redundancy of having blue paint for wood and blue paint for steel (for example). This is all in THEORY. In practice, Revit uses the painted surface material's cut pattern for cutting the object!

    The solution from Auto desk is to try a different approach! I guess switching to ArchiCAD could be that different approach...but an unlikely one of course. A person by the name of Alex summed it up nicely on Autodesk Knowledge Network(hopefully it is ok for me to copy/paste from their post):

    "BAH... sounds like another half-baked Revit feature. If your view cuts through more than one painted surface on a model element, then it thinks that element is the painted material. Revit really needs a way to manage and differentiate finishes from materials. I see posts about this dating back 6 or more years. ArchiCAD did this 3-4 years ago by implementing "Building Materials" and "Surfaces", and it's beautiful.

    I hope Revit gets on the board with the idea that BIM isn't just about model information anymore, and requires just as much intelligence in visualization. Right now we have to manage the model & visualization relationship with TONS of redundant materials that bog the environment down, and are a headache to update.

    Thanks for your help Toan! I'm open to ideas on other approaches!


    Kind Regards,
    alex"

    Here are links, the first one from 2010 that introduces the concept (almost 7 years ago!), one from 2011, and then the link from Autodesk Knowledge Network.

    Paint face in component?

    What Revit Wants: How to assign a parameter to a painted surface in a family

    https://knowledge.autodesk.com/suppo...p/6817716.html


    Autodesk...please fix. Thank you

    #2
    So your first post here is a rant against Autodesk.? We are here to help with Revit processes...post in the ideas section at the Autodesk Forums so you get kudos about the issue and it will get noticed.
    Michael "MP" Patrick (Deceased - R.I.P)

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      #3
      My apologies...it was not intended as a rant...merely a request for a solution to a lingering shortcoming. I will be more sensitive in the future. I actually do love Revit. So, speaking of help with Revit processes...any other thoughts besides posting at the Autodesk Forums? Or is this just something we need to live with until it gets a solution. Thanks and again, sorry for the offence.

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        #4
        We used to have a wish list...and so does AUGI...but they are pretty much redundant now with the Idea station coming online last year.
        https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit...ab/most-recent

        I think AUGI is still managing theirs, as I get e-mails to go vote, and they present the top 10 for each program at AU to the each program manager. Quite a few of us have submitted our ideas to the Autodesk Idea station and I think some are in development or at least accepted.
        Michael "MP" Patrick (Deceased - R.I.P)

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          #5
          I'm probably missing something, but you can paint with a parameter. You just make the material parameter in the family editor then paint the surfaces of the geometery and that material parameter will show up as a choice in the list of materials. However I can't stand painting faces so I prefer just making multiple materials, IE Steel-Painted- PT1, Steel-Painted- PT2.

          Now it would certainly be better if every object had a material and finish parameter built in.
          Scott D. Brown, AIA | Senior Project Manager | Beck Group

          Comment


            #6
            Thanks Michael. I'll post something on Autodesk Forums non-rant style.

            Scott: You are correct that you can paint family surfaces with a parameter. The problem is that when you load the family into a project and cut a section through it, it cuts based on the finish and not on the material of the object. The goal is to be able to use (in your example) PT1 on both a steel beam and a wood beam and still have each of those items show respectively as steel and wood when cut in section. That is, without creating two Revit PT-1 materials with one cutting as steel and the other as wood. Kind of like you might paint a piece of metal and wood with the same color paint real life. This would be for commonly used families that have value both in documentation and presentation and that are frequently painted one color or another.

            The third link in my original post covers it well. https://knowledge.autodesk.com/suppo...p/6817716.html

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              #7
              It's really annoying in families. They fixed it in walls, where it had some use because by adding a paint layer we were able to use a material tag to identify accent paints. Hopefully the'll fix it in families at some point. At least with families you could turn off a finish paint layer in some views, though it wouldn't help when the item is at an angle to the cut plan.
              Julie Kidder
              Architect + BIM Director
              Hartman + Majewski Design Group

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                #8
                Originally posted by cutterbuz View Post
                Thanks Michael. I'll post something on Autodesk Forums non-rant style.

                Scott: You are correct that you can paint family surfaces with a parameter. The problem is that when you load the family into a project and cut a section through it, it cuts based on the finish and not on the material of the object. The goal is to be able to use (in your example) PT1 on both a steel beam and a wood beam and still have each of those items show respectively as steel and wood when cut in section. That is, without creating two Revit PT-1 materials with one cutting as steel and the other as wood. Kind of like you might paint a piece of metal and wood with the same color paint real life. This would be for commonly used families that have value both in documentation and presentation and that are frequently painted one color or another.

                The third link in my original post covers it well. https://knowledge.autodesk.com/suppo...p/6817716.html
                Im not sure what everyone is experiencing, but what you mentioned above is NOT happening here. It is working as Scott describes, regardless of the Finish Material having or not having a Cut Pattern.

                Just verifed in Revit 2017.2:

                1. Placed one of my Door Panel components (edit: Placed it in a PROJECT, for clarification), which have:

                1a. a Material Parameter (Type) applied to the geometry in the family editor
                1b. a Material Parameter (Instance) Painted on the SURFACES (All of them, horizontal and vertical) of the geometry, in the family editor.

                2. Set the Type Property (Material Parameter) to be one with a cut pattern... The cut pattern shows up.

                3. Set the Instance Parameter (Material Parameter) to be one with a cut pattern, and nothing changes in a view that cuts the door. (The cut pattern from above, shows). But in 3D and elevations, the instance parameters surface pattern and shader values show, as expected and desired.

                So it would appear (unfortunately) that the "reasons" given to you in the other thread are not accurate, since i can paint all 6 sides of a door panel, and have it work correctly with instance parameters.

                Any chance you arent on 2017.2? I wonder if they had a bug that they resolved?
                Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
                @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email

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                  #9
                  I'm on 2017.2 and I was able to replicate it in a generic model last night. However, I don't think I switched the tests to the door category, so maybe it behaves differently between family types.
                  Julie Kidder
                  Architect + BIM Director
                  Hartman + Majewski Design Group

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                    #10
                    Interesting! After your response, i just went and changed the category, and they do indeed behave differently. Im going to forward that on to the QA team, and see what they say.
                    Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
                    @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email

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