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Roof with different sloping - one roof or individual surfaces?

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    #1

    Roof with different sloping - one roof or individual surfaces?

    This topic is started due to a discussion between Twiceroadsfool and me about the best way to create a roof with different slopes from a prefab point of view.

    This is an example from one of our actual projects. The roof segment running over the depth of the building (vertical from floorplan) and the segment running over the length (horizontal) are two individual roofs, for which I made a vertical opening so that the interior surfaces join (those are the base points for our inhouse timber factory). And the left roof segment is drawn individually too. So basically I first made them drawing two rectangles of which two lines define the slope, and then instead of modifying the sketch I made a roof opening to cut away the part where they overlap

    The reason for this is that the sections must match the details from our timber factory. Some of the roof segments extend ever so slightly from where the surfaces meet to get the gutters right. I agree that this looks ugly from elevation view but in my opinion, from a sustainable BIM model point of view where the builder owns and maintains the BIM model, this is the best solution.

    If we had to do this by making one roof, then we had to do a complicated dance with base line offsets and very short slope arrows. Every time we think we got it right, Revit cannot make that roof.

    I can only make this clearer if you sat right next to me, had a look at our details and then discuss and try solutions to do this in Revit. And we reserved two days at some point with the technical guy from our timber plant and a consultant from our Revit retailer (an Autodesk Gold partner). With every attempt we got closer and closer, but 'nearly there' isn't good enough for us and at some point the efforts of creating it as a single roof defeats the purpose of doing it that way.


    However, we're eager to learn and I would like to know how you would tackle such a roof, how you would transfer it to the timber plant (from a process point of view) and what you would do if you couldn't get it 'just right'. Thoughts please.
    Last edited by Clogboy; April 7, 2011, 07:30 AM.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Questions: What is the roof plan, the slopes, the heights?
    Freelance BIM Provider at Autodesk Services Marketplace | Linkedin

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      #3
      My technical English isn't that great so I didn't bother explaining the roof plan, but they are prefabricated segments which are loaded on a truck. The support beams run vertically so each individual segment bears it's own load and they are mounted against a wooden beam which is anchored to the floor. Maybe that's what you mean with roof plan.
      Slopes are 40 and 57 deg. The roof heights: bottom basically at 2nd floor level, height lets call it 18'.
      Not sure if I could upload detailing but try using your own or I could provide cad exports of both sections? (actually uploading files to this forum is a firewall issue for me)

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        #4
        Well, its hard to comment when you mention there are some intricate details that make it not possible to do, but dont include those details.

        But on the surface, i dont see any reason that would need to be seperate roofs. Just my two cents. Not sayng it works for everyone, but we are pretty integrated with our Architecture and our Construction. We try to strike a great balance between what benefits each. (For instance Construction doesnt like Shaft openings since they dont report additional perimeter for pour stops, but edited sketches do, but its way faster to use Shaft openings for Architecture, so its a balance)...

        The system panelization that youre talking about in the other thread and this one is axactly the POINT of the new tools: So architecture can model it one way, and construction can "tweak" it another, and still have it all update and stay contiguous. The idea is for it not to harm either sides workflow. Making roofs one plane at a time? Thats certainly costing someone time.
        Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
        @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email

        Comment

          #5
          Originally posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
          Well, its hard to comment when you mention there are some intricate details that make it not possible to do, but dont include those details.
          So you just have to take my word for it that we spent DAYS (if not weeks) researching the roof tool and try to find the quickest workflow that satisfies both parties.

          How do you transfer information to Construction? Do they also have an automated production line? Our factory uses hsbCAD (TimberCAD) which is based on ADT.

          Comment

            #6
            LOL, or we can just agree to disagree. You couldnt find a solution, working with your tech support and reseller, that i understand. My point in the other thread (whether you agree with it or not) is that in an Architecture model, modeling the roofs one pitch at a time isnt the intended- or in my humble opinion- the appropriate workflow. If it was, we wouldnt BE ABLE to put multiple slopes and Shape Edits on roofs.

            Regarding transferring information to Construction, its a very open ended question, since there are many different project types and many different building types. We have several projects where Construction is going straight to automated production, yes. And in those cases, we tend to do more up front work to make sure they get appropriate models from us... However, if there is a massive workflow hindrance on the design side for such a venture, we explore a lot of workflows, anything from having dual (but related) models, to having Architecture model it one way, and construction alter it later (which, by the way, is the entire intent of Parts and assemblies. If they wanted us to model it for fabrication on the architectural side, we wouldnt need the tool!), in the same model, which is a much more preferred workflow over having two models. Weve done it with some design options as well.

            Regardless, im glad you guys have a workflow that you are happy with. My thoughts in the other thread are my opinion: I believe the new tools fall short, since they only work on single plane roofs, which is not the workflow we (and many many many) other firms endorse. If you guys do, and are happy with it, great!
            Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
            @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email

            Comment

              #7
              Originally posted by Clogboy View Post
              Maybe that's what you mean with roof plan.
              No. "Roof plan" is just another way to refer to a plan view of the roof. Like the one you get in Revit from a Site plan.
              Freelance BIM Provider at Autodesk Services Marketplace | Linkedin

              Comment

                #8
                I've seen this problem too and came to the same conclusion. There are some problems and, if you want to solve them, you'll need to go to seperate roofs:

                1. One of the problems is, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that in the corners the two plains don't join properly. The steepest plane (being 57degr) had a wrong cutoff if I recall correctly.
                2. Another problem was the difference in cutoff level at the bottom. The cutoff will be set to the lowest point of the steepest plane. This means that the plane with the smaller angle doesn't get cut off properly.
                3. Third problem is aligning the roof on the proper intersection point with the facade. The company I was working for in that assignment wanted to be able to precisely place the intersection point of the roof plane with the outer facade plane. This is very difficult with a roof that has multiple slopes.

                Personally, I agree with Aaron: you should at least ask yourself if it's worth the hassle. It isn't the same as hsbCAD, and it's giving and taking. People often tend to forget that when they started with their previous CAD-program that also did or did not do certain stuff. In which they had to give a little and take a little...
                Martijn de Riet
                Professional Revit Consultant | Revit API Developer
                MdR Advies
                Planta1 Revit Online Consulting

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                  #9
                  Obviously, I missed the beginning of the story, (and no link was provided in this thread to read the other thread). But anyway, just to contribute to the discussion, at least in regards to geometry, it is possible, as Aaron said, to do this roof in one single piece.

                  See illustration.
                  Attached Files
                  Freelance BIM Provider at Autodesk Services Marketplace | Linkedin

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Thank you.
                    In terms of geometry you're right. But a roof ends 100mm behind the exterior wall surface, over which lies a fascia (see floorplan). Try and model that. The obvious way I found to do that was to pull that line back a bit, then create a slope arrow along where the roof surfaces join (if I remember right).
                    Anyway, the issues you'll encounter when you try to do it that way are just the tip of the iceberg.

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