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[All Verticals] - Batten insulation as flexible patterns

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    [All Verticals] - Batten insulation as flexible patterns

    Applies to: - Revit Architecture

    New Feature / Problem:
    I really miss this feature from "that other" Autodesk application.

    The ability to have batten insulation shown, scaled and aligned in our walls.

    Why do you need this Feature / Why is it a Problem:
    National standard/code requires this.

    Almost each and every wall we create have batten insulation in them (Heat insulation and/or sound reduction)

    When done modelling all the walls with batten insulations in them we´ll have to trace them with the Annotate > Insulation tool. (yawn)

    Would ensure that the batten insulation follows the wall, when the wall moves or if the wall insulation layer thickness changes.

    Besides, it would save hours and hours of manual labor tracing and updating the traces on the walls.

    Attachment comments:
    Attached Files
    Klaus Munkholm
    "Do. Or do not. There is no try."

    Id prefer it work just like Rebar in RST.
    Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
    @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email


      How does the rebar work? I don't have RST to play with
      Revit for newbies - A starting point for RFO

      BEER: Better, Efficient, Elegant, Repeatable.


        Its a weird hybrid of modeled but flexible. You select an object, sketch rebar on a workplane (and rebar allows a section view to BE the workplane), and it basically forms a much more nimble Array: Not grouped, drag handles, stretchable, changeable, and lightweight. Plus, IT EXISTS IN THE 3D MODEL

        Asking for Insulation to be a 'better pattern' isnt what we should be after. We should be looking for it to effortlessly become part of the model. Insulation is real, and it affects a LOT of things in Architecture.
        Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
        @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email


          I have one thing to say to this (and I have also always practised what I preach, unless someone is paying me for doing stupid, mindless, needless work):

          Screw national standards.
          Look at the legend, my insulation hatching is defined in there.
          The day I am voluntary spending my time drawing linework to match an ancient, outdated relic from hand-drafting time is the day I will have to find a new profession.
          And for that matter: I have done a few hundred project projects in a country that adores his drawing standards and I have had 2 or 3 of them where the local authorities demanded to change my hatching to match drafting standards even after I explained that this was not possible in my software. Those buildings all still stand, and are built according to specifications. No hell breaking loose, the world didn't stop spinning. We all live happily ever after...

          So, I would very much like the factory to focuss on stuff more useful. But that's just my 2ct...
          Martijn de Riet
          Professional Revit Consultant | Revit API Developer
          MdR Advies
          Planta1 Revit Online Consulting


            I dont want it to work like rebar because i care what it looks like: Because i totally agree with you, there. But the fact that insulation is still a non-modeled object is disappointing. Insulation is pivotal to a lot of things. We use instance parameters in walls to calculate amounts of it, but a rebar-esque solution would be amazing.

            But i do agree, i dont give a damn what that modeled solution LOOKS like.
            Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
            @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email


              But you can model your insulation as a Wall layer, can't you? I am surely missing here something... Or do you want to model insulation panels or something?
              Martijn de Riet
              Professional Revit Consultant | Revit API Developer
              MdR Advies
              Planta1 Revit Online Consulting


                Yes and no. You can make it a wall layer in the wall makeup, if you are prepared to:

                a. Define it at the type level
                b. Have a crap ton of wall types
                c. Get really ugly with even MORE stacked walls

                Insulation brings a lot of the same issues as Sheathing to the table, but it does it in more exaggerated form: There are different types of insulation that go in the stud cavity (Batt, spray in, etc), and to make matters worse... They dont always FILL the stud cavity. 6 inch studs with 2 inches of spray in, filled with Batt, etc. The permutations of wall types would be tremendous. Plus, it makes more sense to have it defined at the instance level. I dont want all those wall types, i would rather go around after the fact and model in the insulation where it happens. Plus now its tricky: If you get in to MTO, you had to break your stud layer in to a 4 inch section of stud layer and a 2 inch section of insulation in stud layer. Things get dicey pretty fast.

                Plus: What do you do when its not in a wall? Or a ceiling? Or a System Family? Like rebar, Insulation often has to *bridge the gap* between two items, and id like to model it as such.

                Sure, we can do it with line based families, but that sort of thing gets heavy. For whatever reason, the way rebar is built in to the program is very lightweight, by comparison.
                Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
                @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email


                  Right, that may be a problem indeed... Keep forgetting you guys use stud walls WAY more often then we do. For me, insulation is just a Wall layer 90% of the time. Rest of the time I just model in the studs and stuff.

                  There are a few options imho, all with their own (serious) drawbacks:
                  - Use Curtain Walls for the studs and insulation. Not a viable option as long as you can't lock openings together.
                  - Model in studs as a Line Based Component. Not a viable option on large projects, it will bring your model to a grinding halt.
                  - Forget the whole insulation part in the model and solve it with DC's. Don't think I need to elaborate on those drawbacks...

                  So yeah, I can understand your problem. But it's not just the insulation I guess. You also need the ability to model the studs quickly in order for you to appoint areas of insulation (sticking with the walls here since that is the largest portion). And how to deal with openings? Frankly: I only see this working if you can select a Wall, define stud type & spacing, end conditions, how to handle openings and type and thickness of insulation. Then Revit creates the families and places them. Seems like a hell of a programming job to me.

                  But should be doable. I've seen addins that create windows based on sketchlines of the mullions and fill the openings with panels. So it is possible to do this. To convert this to a stud/insulation tool it would only need to mimic the dimensions of the selected wall (which is not that difficult) and their openings (which has already been proven doable by Autodesk in a Plugin of the month).

                  Does anyone happen to have a buttload of money lying around to fund an API queeste? :laugh:
                  Last edited by mdradvies; February 12, 2012, 08:47 AM.
                  Martijn de Riet
                  Professional Revit Consultant | Revit API Developer
                  MdR Advies
                  Planta1 Revit Online Consulting


                    We have hundreds of stud walls in every project, just about. Hundreds.

                    There are addins that model partition framing VERY quickly, through the API. They all have limitations,yes... But thats not the real issue with insulation. StructSofts MWF Framing Utility works very well, and i believe Clark Dietrich (sp?) tool is a modified variation of the MWF utility. I have it here, and its very fast. Especially considering you can pre define joinery conditions and rules at corners and openings.

                    There are limitations in the app that are supposedly based on limitations in Revit, such as: The add in cant actually reference the Openings/Voids in the families, so they use parameter values to determine "a rectangular hole in the wall" which works in MOST cases, but not all. It also means the tool uses the crappy OOTB doors and parameters, so right now it totally doesnt work with our Doors, especially since the only thing in a Parent Door family that affects the Wall Opening is the Dimensions AND the Frame type, and the API cant access the Wall Opening from the nested frame at all. But, it does let you predefine spacking at wall types, stud types, and the like.

                    It TRIES to do sheathing with Curtain Walls, but it does a lousy job.

                    Even with all that, i really cant explain the difference in the rebar tool and standard components, unless you try it (or have used it). Line basd families are extremely limited (arrays and groups). Plus, theyre HEAVY, by comparison. And you cant sketch at every instance (in section as well as in plan) like you can with rebar. And again: Standard componentry falls apart when you have to do things like lap insulation above ceilings, only at certain rooms.
                    Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
                    @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email


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