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Parametric rules from design to manufacture

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    Parametric rules from design to manufacture

    Dear Klaus and Martijn, Thank you for your responses to my 'introduce yourself' post. I realise what I am asking is a lot of work but I am not planning for it to happen all in one go, it would be an evolutionary thing. I just want to set up a few simple rules in Revit for example a room made up of wall panels and then work on these as an ongoing project.
    I would like to start with a simple set of objects, being a family of panels, which have different colours, materials (wood, fabric, mirror, marble, leather etc) into which would be inserted nested details. These panels would be pre cut and pre assembled in a workshop off site and later delivered, unpacked and connected together in position. All the specifications of each detail of this panel would be integrated in the Revit model including the price, its origin, the stock number, cutting pattern, colour etc. Also the route of electrical and mechanical services which can be pre cut. Some elements would need to be parametric but at this formative stage the parametric rules would be very basic.
    Below is a simple explanation of a panel idea and picture to represent it:
    If I was designing an old style timber panelled room using traditional features there are certain rules one would need to follow. These would be, starting from the floor up, the introduction of a period style skirting board of a certain height, say 150mm, followed by a base rail of a certain height, say 100mm, then a flat panel, a mid rail to match the base, then a dado rail of 50mm, then another mid rail followed by another recessed panel, a top rail and finishing with a cornice. Now there are certain rules one can follow for this, being, the dado rail is always found within a certain height, let's say on average one metre from the floor. (its role traditionally was to act as a buffer protection from the back of chairs in case they damaged the wall finish, hence there consistent height. )
    In this example we are talking only about a floor to ceiling height in one dimension, but even in this one dimension there are certain automated rules which could be set up. The dado remains constant at one metre above floor level, therefore the panel above has to reach the ceiling, but we know there is the mid rail 100mm, top rail 100mm and cornice 150mm which remain constant heights, so the recessed panel stretches parametrically to accommodate this space. There would be rules set up where it couldn't be too low or too high. We know that the skirting is 150mm, the base rail is 100mm and the mid rail is 100mm which means the flat panel is 650mm. The dado height determines this height.
    The next level and the most interesting would be the elevation from left to right (second dimension). Again certain automated rules could be set up that would generate the ordering of divisions. And this is all before the introduction of doors, windows, shelves etc.
    The decorative panels would be say 15 to 35mm thick (third dimension), I need to think how they would be self supported and built and most importantly how they would be joined together and how to deal with the seam and things like that. I know there are all sorts of engineered clips and fixings out there but all this needs to be considered and introduced as a nested object. As you say, this is as a lot of work and a big investment but once the rules are set up the second project should be sailing!
    I am trying to find some interested individuals who can undertake this sort of research and help with the creation of a bespoke library of families and nested objects. Does this make sense, can Revit do it? Automated rules from design to manufacture.
    Attached Files

    #2
    this will go a long way:
    1 set up a number of curtain wall family types. those can handle the standard panel divisions - the divisions that occur most often. create set of parametric cw panels with conditional geometry - if it's this heigh, this extra division will show, etc.
    2 nest your fixtures in these panels as shared, add the conduits leading through the panel to the fixture family and place the connector where the conduit would leave the panel.
    3 if the scope is limited to one room, model it to the last nail - detailing then becomes a matter of zooming in and cut pattern overrides by filter, make sure your material parameters are shared so you can filter those directly.

    personally I would hand the panelling-customer-on-a-budget a jar of gypsum plaster and refer them to the nearest styrofoam profile manufacturer; the rest i would send to an old-fashioned carpenter. nothing whispers 'cheap' more loudly than flawlessly machined intricacies. -insert generic research data on historic relation between income and dwelling investments- how is that for advice-on-a-budget ?
    There must be a better way...

    Ekko Nap
    Professional nitpicker, architect, revit consultant, etc.

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      #3
      Ekko, sorry to burst your bubble but this isn't going to work. The reason for this is that the CW-panels have no fixed dimensions by definition. It will get you in major coordination problems sooner or later. The only way I have found this to work is creating a Generic Model, Face based. This gives you complete freedom to add all elements you want AND make it as static / flexible you need it to be.

      Now I would love to participate but frankly, this is going to be a hell of a job. And I have several of these "fiddle-around-in-my-spare-time" lying on my desk. And no spare time... So, if you have any questions please post them. But I'm in no position to be very pro-active right about now.
      Martijn de Riet
      Professional Revit Consultant | Revit API Developer
      MdR Advies
      Planta1 Revit Online Consulting

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        #4
        Sure, Revit can do it. As MDR said, you just need to take the time to set up the library of parts. The room i did didnt have as much complexity in the panel profiles, but its all the same once you have them started.

        http://www.studiosyracuse.com/images...der/index.html

        The complexity in the rules you can add in is limited only by how much time and effort you want to put in trying to make it *automatic* versus simply KNOWING some of the rules, and not breaking them.

        Getting it to fabrication can *mean* a lot of things. You just want to give the fabricator some schedules? Thats one thing. Kicking out connections to shop drawings? Possible, with some serious time investment. Be ready to dive in pretty extensively, though. With either considerably time or money.
        Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
        @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by mdradvies View Post
          Ekko, sorry to burst your bubble but this isn't going to work. The reason for this is that the CW-panels have no fixed dimensions by definition. It will get you in major coordination problems sooner or later.
          OK, maybe not all that long . Burst bubble aside, wasn't the big upside of revit that it could document these things where other software could just give you pretty pictures? Where exactly does the CW documentation fail/lack?

          Now that I give it some thought, width/heigth is probably not definened the panel family itself, meaning you would have to export at some point and do some datamining to get what you need. Am I on the right track here or did you have someting else in mind?

          Still, generic components would work better at that. little more work drawing, lot less work documenting.
          There must be a better way...

          Ekko Nap
          Professional nitpicker, architect, revit consultant, etc.

          Comment


            #6
            CW documentation won't fail/lack. CW's just aren't fixed in sizes. The whole purpose of the tool is to have fixed sizes and dimensions...
            Trust me, I've gone through all possibilities with the University project. There's no other way than starting from scratch in the most generic family you can find. And that are the Generic Models. All other types have hardcoded properties that to some extent screw up the family's behaviour.
            Martijn de Riet
            Professional Revit Consultant | Revit API Developer
            MdR Advies
            Planta1 Revit Online Consulting

            Comment


              #7
              University project? Sounds interesting... I take it you tested severel family categories for usability in downstream manufacture?
              There must be a better way...

              Ekko Nap
              Professional nitpicker, architect, revit consultant, etc.

              Comment


                #8
                LOL, I tested them all... Curtain Walls, Beams using Beam system or the Framing extension, even Casework. Like I said, the only category with hardly any predefined hardcoded rules in them are Generic Models.

                Here's the project site btw... Dutch and English
                Martijn de Riet
                Professional Revit Consultant | Revit API Developer
                MdR Advies
                Planta1 Revit Online Consulting

                Comment


                  #9
                  Maybe there is more information than what I've read on this thread, but to me that sounds like curtain walls will achieve the requirement. Yes curtain wall panel widths and heights are instance based rather than type, but you can use reporting parameters to drive geometry from them, and you can still have multiple instances of the same widths to essentially have instances that a pseudo types that schedule as such...

                  I believe it would be possible to whip something together to the complexity you require in 2-3 days...
                  Chris Price
                  Co Founder | BIM Manager | Product Designer | B.Arch (QUT)
                  Xrev Revit API Add-ins | Revit Rants

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Well, what I assumed (and I might be wrong about that) is that these panels need to have some basic rules applied:

                    - Possible layouts, standard sizes are provided by manufacturer / vendor.
                    - These main dimensions are fixed and not to be meddled with by a user
                    - The families need to be drag-and-drop useable in a project by a third party.

                    These three rules prevented us from using ANY system family since they are by default not complying...

                    Maybe I am going about this in the wrong way, and these are not requirements. In that case, a Curtain Wall will do just fine. But as soon as fixed dimensions and/or useability by third parties with no particular knowledge of how the families are created come into play, CW's fail big time.
                    Martijn de Riet
                    Professional Revit Consultant | Revit API Developer
                    MdR Advies
                    Planta1 Revit Online Consulting

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