Tagging walls above cutplane

[rkitect]

Aside from the fact that I feel this is completely poor documentation, I'm in a situation where I'm being asked to tag a curtain wall that is above a normal partition wall (think partition wall up to 8' then storefront on top). In plan they want to see the partition wall, but tag the storefront above (created using the curtain wall tool). I'm curious if anyone has attempted this before and what their method was. I think I have a workaround to get this to work but wanted to see how other people are doing, if they are doing it...

[Dave Jones]

Aside from the fact that I feel this is completely poor documentation, I'm in a situation where I'm being asked to tag a curtain wall that is above a normal partition wall (think partition wall up to 8' then storefront on top). In plan they want to see the partition wall, but tag the storefront above (created using the curtain wall tool). I'm curious if anyone has attempted this before and what their method was. I think I have a workaround to get this to work but wanted to see how other people are doing, if they are doing it...

if you're not scheduling the quantities of storefront frames why not just make another really small curtain wall below the cut plane, mark it the same as the one above, and tag that? It's either that or make a generic fake tag to match your wall tag

[rkitect]

...why not just make another really small curtain wall below the cut plane, mark it the same as the one above, and tag that?...

Anything that's less "BAD MODELER!!! BAD!!!" and more "that's a reasonable workaround" ish?

[rkitect]

I actually have 2 solutions and I'm trying to determine which is most practical from a documentation standpoint. They still want to show 2 tags on the plan for documentation, one for the normal wall partition and one for the glazing above which you can't see in plan.

Solution 1) Make the entire wall a curtain wall, divide the lower 8' out as a basic wall panel. This makes the entire wall taggable for the storefront and the basic wall panel taggable for the wall partition.

Solution 2) Set the base offset for the storefront above to 3' (or anything below the cutplane) then attach its base to a reference plane at 8'. This allows me to tag it in plan view and have it model correctly.

Either way, I don't see this being the most practical way to document these walls, but alas it's what I'm being asked to do (despite discussion and objection).

[Dave Jones]

I actually have 2 solutions and I'm trying to determine which is most practical from a documentation standpoint. They still want to show 2 tags on the plan for documentation, one for the normal wall partition and one for the glazing above which you can't see in plan.

Solution 1) Make the entire wall a curtain wall, divide the lower 8' out as a basic wall panel. This makes the entire wall taggable for the storefront and the basic wall panel taggable for the wall partition.

Solution 2) Set the base offset for the storefront above to 3' (or anything below the cutplane) then attach its base to a reference plane at 8'. This allows me to tag it in plan view and have it model correctly.

Either way, I don't see this being the most practical way to document these walls, but alas it's what I'm being asked to do (despite discussion and objection).

now you're changing the rules :crazy: Either way, you're going to a lot of trouble to document something that should be handled with a plan region and tag the curtain wall as it should be...IMO of course

[rkitect]

1) Which rule did I change and

2) Why is that the correct way to document it? If I used a plan region I would no longer see the partition that sits at the cut plane that the storefront above sits on. Everyone I'm asking here is kind of shrugging when I ask how they've done it int he past and there doesn't seem to be a documented convention on proper documentation of this assembly type.

In regards to my 2 solutions. Solution 1) was modeled more properly than Solution 2); but you can not tag Basic Wall types that are in curtain walls as Basic Walls, you have to use a curtain wall panel to tag walls nested into curtain walls.

Solution 2) isn't that much work, I can do every interior glazing storefront with one command using one reference plane. However, since they are using a different Wall tag to document the storefront than the normal partitions we have to go back and forth between tag types when tagging these two. Pros and Cons weighted, I think Solution 2) is going to be the easiest for now.

[JeffH]

I would agree it is probably not the best way to document this condition as it seems really confusing to me. Here is what I did. I placed the high curtain wall as I should in the model so it looks corect. In the 1st level plan view where you want the curtain wall tag but do not want to see the curtain wall above I created a really small plan region where the curtain wall will show. In that plan region you can place a wall tag that will attach to the curtain wall. Once it was tagged I used the linework tool in the plan region to erase/modify the tiny portion to look the way i want it to and so it will blend in with the wall on either side of the plan region.

It takes a little time to do all the cover up work but it work ok. It might even survive some modest changes to the walls/geometry if it hapened.

If it was me I would advocate strongly for a different documentation method for this condition.

[Dave Jones]

1) Which rule did I change and

2) Why is that the correct way to document it?

I was sort of kidding, and it did say IMO. I guess I'm glad that I'm self employed because if someone told me to tag a curtain wall frame above the cut plane and I had to waste half of my day figuring out how to come up with a fudge way to do it I'd tell them to go pound sand and be looking for another job

[rkitect]

Sorry, i didn't mean for that to come across as be taking you too literally. I just wanted to make sure I was asking the question correctly. so on me :P

I still don't see how the plan region is the correct way to go because showing the storefront at the cut plane is incorrect as it is above the cut plane. Then again, they are wanting to tag something that isn't even there... so who's to say we're not already incorrect as it is. I'll get some pics up in a sec.

[Gordon Price]

I still don't see how the plan region is the correct way to go because showing the storefront at the cut plane is incorrect as it is above the cut plane. Then again, they are wanting to tag something that isn't even there... so who's to say we're not already incorrect as it is. I'll get some pics up in a sec.

But remember, in Revit the cut plane is a literal thing, but in hand drafting (and AutoCAD) it was nothing more than a convenient abstraction. Often a high window would be drawn cut because dimensioning it in plan is important. Either the elevation or perhaps a note about sill height or the like would clarify the situation. The main key is that a floor plan is not about showing "reality" like a physical model cut at 4'. The goal of a floor plan is to document design intent, and if the floor plan is the best place to show and dimension the high window, then it should be done there.
That said, my experience has been that you never dimension or tag something that can't be seen. Not in Revit, not in AutoCAD, and not in hand drafting. If it was me, I would use a Plan Region to show the window, and dimension and tag as appropriate. If the window doesn't run the full length of the wall, I would tag the (true) wall at some point where it is full height. Again, elevations will clarify. And if the window is a wall to wall ribbon window, then I might use tricks to get the wall tag in there, with a little text "Below" to clarify. Tagging the invisible wall below seems less confusing than tagging an invisible (and more complex) window above. If nothing else, you need to communicate where the window is exactly, so that rough opening and framing can be addressed. Simple wall below doesn't require the same level of information, just a tag and wall construction noted in the Wall/Partition Types.
All that said, I would never tag a storefront borrowed lite as a wall. It is built by the same people who do door framing, and I would tag and schedule it appropriately, and include it in the Door, Frame and Relite legend as well. But that could easily be a west coast convention, or an "offices I have worked in" convention (but it has been 100% the case in 7 different offices in two different states). If an office has a standard that storefront ribbon windows or borrowed lites are tagged as walls then gotta run with that. But I wonder, is that also detailed in the Wall/Partition Types sheet? I rather doubt it, and at that point you have potential confusion.

Gordon