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    Architecture vs Structural Questions

    I work for an architectural firm. We are trying to figure out the best way to handle real collaboration between models. With mechanical, plumbing and electrical it's pretty straight forward. The question is how to handle structural.

    1. CMU and concrete walls. We need to have control over CMU walls so we can insert doors and windows. Structural needs control for obvious reasons. Who models the CMU walls? Is it best to have BOTH arch and struct model cmu walls?

    2. Roof decks. Should structural model steel roof decks and the architectural model the rigid insulation and roofing material?

    3. Floor slabs and floor decks. Should structural model this (I think yes) and architectural NOT model it?

    We're trying to figure out the best practice and procedure to eliminate duplication of effort, to make collaboration smooth and make the best use of Revit between disciplines. What are you guys doing and what have you to work the best?

    Thanks.

    #2
    Where I work we are in house Arch and Struct. The Arch owns all the walls. Struct will model the curbs where needed. I am trying to work with Arch to get the curbs to be in the Arch walls.

    Idealy IMO Struct would own the structural portion of the wall and Arch would own the finishes.

    Structural will use Floors for everything (floors can have cut profiles), Arch Roof sits on top of the Struct Floor.

    Same for floors. Struct own the floor and Arch puts another on top for finishes.

    Copy Monitor Levels and Grids.
    -Alex Cunningham

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      #3
      Originally posted by renogreen View Post
      I work for an architectural firm. We are trying to figure out the best way to handle real collaboration between models. With mechanical, plumbing and electrical it's pretty straight forward. The question is how to handle structural.

      1. CMU and concrete walls. We need to have control over CMU walls so we can insert doors and windows. Structural needs control for obvious reasons. Who models the CMU walls? Is it best to have BOTH arch and struct model cmu walls?

      2. Roof decks. Should structural model steel roof decks and the architectural model the rigid insulation and roofing material?

      3. Floor slabs and floor decks. Should structural model this (I think yes) and architectural NOT model it?

      We're trying to figure out the best practice and procedure to eliminate duplication of effort, to make collaboration smooth and make the best use of Revit between disciplines. What are you guys doing and what have you to work the best?

      Thanks.
      Well, that's really depending on your workflow. Are you going to work with a central file or linked files?

      Central File > Structural members are dealt with by the Structural engineers. They exist in their own worksets, but the elements can be altered by the architectural guys by borrowing them (although I wouldn't recommend that). In my experience most of the time the walls are cut into two separate pieces: the structural and non-structural wall. the windows and doors are hosted on the non-structural walls. The structural engineer can place and adjust openings to match the windows.
      Floor and roof decks: same here. They're done by the structural engineers. Finish layers, insulation and other stuff by the building engineers.

      Although it also happens a lot that the architect / building engineers start by placing "dummy" structural members which get switched out by the structural engineers later. All depends on when they come into play.

      Linked files: Almost the same as above although you could look into the copy/monitor functions...
      Martijn de Riet
      Professional Revit Consultant | Revit API Developer
      MdR Advies
      Planta1 Revit Online Consulting

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        #4
        Beware of Copy/Monitor and walls. They have a couple issues which make the Copy part of the process dangerous. First the copies are aligned based on Wall Centerline so you can't swap a wall to just the structural version without generating coordination warnings. More dangerous is how openings in the walls are interpreted. The total geometry of the door/window are used to define the opening in the copy, which is usually very wrong. It's a long standing issue that has been waiting for resolution. The current recommendation from Autodesk is to place your own walls and then use Monitor only to keep an eye on positioning only. You'll need to place openings and coordinate them in the "old school" but working in the "new school" way.

        Wood frame construction is the most awkward since the "structure" might be practically the whole frame unless they are only dealing with bracing, lintels, shear etc. More and more I see people willing to model "their" layers in their models. The more willing, the closer to construction they are... still not ideal.

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          #5
          Yep, Copy/Monitor Walls can be very tricky. I would only do this when the structural wall and finishing (even if it's just a wheatherboard on a wooden frame wall) are separated and the finish hosts the opening infill. And that gives you some serious coordination issues...
          Martijn de Riet
          Professional Revit Consultant | Revit API Developer
          MdR Advies
          Planta1 Revit Online Consulting

          Comment


            #6
            Yes, we have had issues with copy/monitor which is part off the reason we are having this internal discussion about arch vs struct.

            Thanks for the input...keep it coming.

            Comment


              #7
              Copy/Monitor also has issues with stacked walls and when the wall gets fliped.
              -Alex Cunningham

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                #8
                I really don't understand the question about this type of thing. The architect wants to see the walls and do details and such on them, so they need the wall, however the structural needs to design them...so they both should have them in their model. The concept of only one discipline owning an element just does not make sense to me, there really is little reason they both can't have the wall in their own model.

                And on Copy/Monitor, I would stay completely away from that, it always sounds like a really great idea and solution, but will more times than not lead to issues down the road that will drive you nuts. We don't even copy/monitor grids any longer.

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                  #9
                  So, five and a half years later... I'm having the same dilemma. In 2015 I was warned away from using the copy/monitor tool for anything but grids and levels. That's how I've used it since.
                  We are a not large structural office. The projects we do in Revit are less than 50k SF. We need to provide the walls where the architect shows them, so I have typically copied the walls from the architectural model and pasted them into our model. I modify them to strip out the non-structural elements. Since I am unaware of HOW the architect uses our model, I haven't thought about ownership and control of the wall elements without duplication of elements and effort until now. Now, only because I'm being pushed for greater efficiency in our use of Revit.
                  We interviewed a trainer who (I think) alluded to copy/monitor being a time saver for the walls. So I've been re-examining the use/function of this tool. And, so far it's not inspiring a lot of confidence in me.
                  For the sake of collaboration, it seems that we (arch and struct) should only have ONE version of the walls for a given project. But, how do we share control of that when we are not in the same office? For 2017, does anyone have new and improved recommendations for this work flow from a structural viewpoint?
                  Thanks in advance!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    If it were me I'd link the Arch model into mine then turn off the visibility of everything except walls. Then create a filter to turn off curtain walls which are in the wall category. When a new Arch model is distributed just do a Relod From and select the new file. All of your V/G settings will remain for the new model. Then you need only figure out where the Architect moved or changed walls


                    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
                    I'm retired, if you don't like it, go around!

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