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    Wall join issue after Cut Profile

    I've recently decided to go full-on with Revit, rather than dipping my toe in out of it, and I'm enjoying making some (slow) progress. But I keep getting stuck on wall joins, as I did before. Latest issue is shown in the image and I just can't figure it out.

    The abutment of the walls wouldn't wrap as I wanted, even after trying all wall join options, so I used Cut Profile to adjust the plan view and it looked perfect, exactly as I wanted. I then checked the 3D and it looked like the image, totally different. I cannot fathom why the plan view and 3D don't match and wondered if I've done something wrong. Can anyone shed some light on this?

    Attached Files

    #2
    Cut profile is a 2D manipulation that alters the appearance of the model in that view only. Its pretty much faking what you see. Whilst you've made the walls look like what you want to achieve in the plan view, the reality is you haven't actually corrected the model join as the 3D view shows the 'truth'. What you need to do is revisit the wall editor and alter the functions of each layer and which layers go in the wall core so that they will (possibly) have the join clean up as you desire. That said, I now almost always avoid compound walls (max 2 layers/materials) and I personally would model that as individual walls for each material for absolute control but for a junction as simple as this you could easily do it with 2 compound walls.
    BLothian
    Senior Member
    Last edited by BLothian; April 7, 2018, 01:11 AM.

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      #3
      Originally posted by BLothian View Post
      Cut profile is a 2D manipulation that alters the appearance of the model in that view only. Its pretty much faking what you see.
      Ahh well, there goes what I thought was my magic bullet solution to wall joins.

      Not sure what the purpose of the command is for then unless you work in 2D only. Shame Cut Profiles doesn't adjust the 3D geometry too, would solve so many issues.

      I've tried various options to get the join to look as per the 2D plan view but couldn't get it to work as I wanted (as shown). You said you avoid compound (multilayered) walls. This isn't something I'd ever considered and flags up a few Q's:
      • What combinations of layers would you use to create walls for my example?
      • How do you ensure the distance relationship between each separate wall layer is maintained throughout the project if they are individual and not together in a compound wall? Is there some form of locking constraint?
      • When these wall layers are placed together to give the appearance of a compound wall do they parametrically react the same when adjusting or adding windows or doors etc?
      • Does modelling this way not add a stack of time to the modelling process/workflow
      JuJitsoup
      Member
      Last edited by JuJitsoup; April 7, 2018, 07:37 AM.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by JuJigsaw View Post
        Ahh well, there goes what I thought was my magic bullet solution to wall joins.
        Not sure what the purpose of the command is for then unless you work in 2D only. Shame Cut Profiles doesn't adjust the 3D geometry too, would solve so many issues.
        Its useful for adjusting geometry only seen in a single view where no or only an extremely complex modelling solution will fix. Sometimes its just not worth the hassle or the time spent to attempt a pure model fix but I find these instances extremely rare.

        Originally posted by JuJigsaw View Post
        I've tried various options to get the join to look as per the 2D plan view but couldn't get it to work as I wanted (as shown). You said you avoid compound (multilayered) walls. This isn't something I'd ever considered and flags up a few Q's:
        • What combinations of layers would you use to create walls for my example?
        See the images below for the final result and the attached file (2018 format) for how I do multiple walls and one option for a compound wall solution:



        Originally posted by JuJigsaw View Post
        • How do you ensure the distance relationship between each separate wall layer is maintained throughout the project if they are individual and not together in a compound wall? Is there some form of locking constraint?
        I personally don't lock them at all to their adjacent parallel wall. During placement I snap to the adjacent wall or use pick lines on the adjacent wall. Once they are placed they don't move unless I need them to and if I do, then I select the entire number of walls I need to move and move them together.


        Originally posted by JuJigsaw View Post
        • When these wall layers are placed together to give the appearance of a compound wall do they parametrically react the same when adjusting or adding windows or doors etc?
        Yes and no. In a compound wall the entire wall is affected by the family which is being hosted (typically by either void(s) and/or an opening cut. With multiple walls you need to build your families a little different because you need to pick a single wall which is the host wall (for me this is typically the inner- leaf of blockwork or timber frame or SFS panel etc... . Then we need to use the join geometry command and ensure each adjacent wall is joined to its neighbouring wall. This is what allows them to all be cut but they may not be fully cut at this stage(if using voids where the extrusions are less than the thickness of the wall) without some additional steps in the window or door family. You need to build in some controls that will change the depth of void extrusion(s) so that it goes beyond the finish/outer substrate layer of the overall wall build-up. Additionally, you may also want to control how the window/door is positioned relative to the host wall as well.


        Originally posted by JuJigsaw View Post
        • Does modelling this way not add a stack of time to the modelling process/workflow
        Again from my experience, Yes and No. It does add more time to creating these more complex families initially, it does add somewhat more time to construct the model but not as much as you may think. You do end up with more individual wall types but you do avoid my pet hate which is a compound wall which you have created and configured its functions & layer arrangement to suit a particular intersection with another type of wall (as per your example) only to find that it doesn't behave with a different type of junction. So you end up having to:
        • split the wall
        • duplicate its type
        • reconfigure its functions & layer arrangement to suit this new intersection/junction
        • Use join geometry so the split lines between disappear between the edge of the 2 wall types.
        • Compound walls can't make a return length that's less than its overall thickness


        Its just messy with bits of different walls all over the model whereas using multiple walls:
        • you can build the model as it would be built on site i.e. single unbroken segments of each wall layer
        • More accurate material take-offs
        • No fighting with basic wall junctions


        Most people who utilise multiple walls do it for the external walls only but use compound walls for internal partitions. I'm one of the few who also use it for those as well as it gives me benefits which suit what I produce but I totally understand why others chose not to follow this path.

        You might find colleagues will not like the idea of multiple walls. I experienced that at a former employer who were using compound walls however their drawings were utter trash as wall junctions were not cleaning up correctly and it was clearly visible even at 1:50. If I was a client and I saw that and questioned why they looked that way and given the answer "oh its because we are doing it in Revit", do you think that client would then be accepting of poor quality & incorrect drawings? I for one wouldn't and would likely tell them to do it right in AutoCAD/MicroStation. Trying to sell the benefits of what Revit can provide over traditional 2D/3D CAD output is one thing but if you cant match its output in Revit then the rest doesn't matter (to some). At least with multiple walls I have absolute confidence that I can produce a model (and from that) drawings that are correct.

        Your mileage may vary...
        Attached Files
        BLothian
        Senior Member
        Last edited by BLothian; April 7, 2018, 01:01 PM.

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          #5
          Really interesting, thanks BL - how do you approach returns at window and door reveals using multiple walls?
          William Sutherland rias riba
          WS Architecture Ltd

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            #6
            Morning Will

            Its the same approach though some wall end points need to be set to disallow join as I find return walls (whether finish or substrate or structure) will try and join with others that I don't want it to join with so that option fixes the problem. Bear in mind that blockwork returns on cavity wall inner-leafs and/or sand cement render returns at window openings are modelled with the correct base and top elevation values relative to but not off the relevant floor level (just as it would be built). Is there a specific detail/wall construction you have in mind?

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              #7
              @BLothian Thanks for going to the effort of creating the drawings and passing on all the info. Very much appreciated.

              I do get why you create walls in layers rather than as compound. It does give a lot more control. I adjusted your drawings to the dims we’re using in the project (with a reveal of one of our lovely UK bricks and a joint @ 215 + 10) and the multiple layer solution worked perfectly, the compound didn’t as had been my experience previously. I again tried all the various wall join options but none worked. Frustratingly this is far from an uncommon situation (in our projects at least) so I can’t understand (at least with my limited knowledge) why Revit can’t deal with something so simple without resorting to a work around. Or is there any easier way?



              Originally posted by BLothian View Post
              I personally don't lock them at all to their adjacent parallel wall.
              Is this an option in Revit? If it is can you give an idea of how it’s done?

              Originally posted by BLothian View Post
              In a compound wall the entire wall is affected by the family which is being hosted (typically by either void(s) and/or an opening cut. With multiple walls you need to build your families a little different because you need to pick a single wall which is the host wall (for me this is typically the inner- leaf of blockwork or timber frame or SFS panel etc... . Then we need to use the join geometry command and ensure each adjacent wall is joined to its neighbouring wall. This is what allows them to all be cut but they may not be fully cut at this stage(if using voids where the extrusions are less than the thickness of the wall) without some additional steps in the window or door family. You need to build in some controls that will change the depth of void extrusion(s) so that it goes beyond the finish/outer substrate layer of the overall wall build-up. Additionally, you may also want to control how the window/door is positioned relative to the host wall as well.
              This is beyond my current level of knowledge, although I’m getting there (I think). I’d love to be able to create my own custom families and have that level of control over them. Do you fancy doing a YouTube tutorial to help spread the knowledge?

              [self redacted - off topic]
              Attached Files
              JuJitsoup
              Member
              Last edited by JuJitsoup; April 9, 2018, 11:05 AM.

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                #8
                Originally posted by JuJigsaw View Post
                Our workplaces are chock full of useless plonkers who take no ownership of what they produce and are more than happy to ship out garbage.
                That IMVHOBOEPATVLIH* is but a product of the work culture encouraged/perpetuated by those in positions "above" such folk.

                I tend to have more faith in the worker bee than I do the Queen.

                Remember; When the cat's away, mice will play.



                *In My Very Honest Opinion Based On Experience Posting At This Very Late Insomniac Hour.
                Catchy acronym 'nah?


                PS: I do apologise if people in my timezone have set alerts for this thread! :hide:

                PPS: Top work w/ the explanation BL. :thumbsup:

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                  #9
                  [self redacted - off topic]
                  JuJitsoup
                  Member
                  Last edited by JuJitsoup; April 9, 2018, 11:13 AM.

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                    #10
                    The original question still stands; is it possible to achieve the results I'm looking for (i.e. how it will be built in reality) using compound walls? Or any answers to my Q's to @BLothian above? :thumbsup:

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