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    Groups and Phasing

    I have multiple identical existing apartment units drawn as a group, and every unit will be receiving the same demolition and renovations. For example demolishing a wall and door in a bathroom, and putting in a new door and wall, shower, fixtures, etc. If I try to demolish the door and place the new door while editing the group, I get all kinds of errors.

    Do I need to make a separate group for the renovation work? Where do the demolished items exist, in the overall group for the existing apartment interior? I'm new to renovation work with groups.

    #2
    As you're no doubt aware, phasing is instance-based for elements - and Revit's groups don't care for capturing the phase-status of elements within them as a repetitious condition - so you can have a two instances of a group, where one has stuff demolished, and the other does not.

    From a working perspective, there's pros and cons to the way Groups work. In your scenario now, where the demo-work is repetitious, it would be really nice if Group functionality expanded to offer user-choices like "keep group instances always the same" (and vice versa) - but sadly that's not the case at this time.

    Ultimately, Groups are but workflow enablers (I really like them) - but in their present implementation actually trip many up, moreso with their fussy-phasing behaviour. I don't think you should consider a new group entirely (as persistency of elements is preferred in almost all cases) - as you will only need to demolish EVERYTHING in your originals - and again, that would involve the sub-selection of all group elements to demolish them, (select all in view comes in handy here to speed things up a little - as would a custom SP set to NOT instance-by-group that you could apply to elements to isolate them)

    First, we need to counter the phasing/hosting issue. You demolish the door, and the original wall, yes? In the subsequent phase you can confirm that they are indeed demolished (as in not visible/overridden dependent on VG) yes? It is here, in the subsequent phase, that you model-place the new wall & door.

    The problem you have, is that you can not add the new wall and door (to the group) until you have completed all the demolishing work required to ALL placed instances of the group - because the new wall and door will conflict with any original walls and doors that might remain. This is exactly correct (Revit) behaviour (if not desirable).

    One could argue that layering the new works into the group isn't v.clever (for the complications phasing pose) - so maybe, if the body of work (new wall, door, fixtures, etc) is extensive enough to warrant a group in their own right, they could be placed separately, in the 'subsequent' phase (that follows the phase where demo happened) - in an attempt to minimise conflicts. Clearly you might hit new issues (room/space bounding, wall-joins and such) - but it's certainly an option to try.
    Last edited by snowyweston; September 27, 2017, 10:29 AM.

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      #3
      Originally posted by snowyweston View Post
      Ultimately, Groups are but workflow enablers (I really like them) - but in their present implementation actually trip many up, moreso with their fussy-phasing behaviour. I don't think you should consider a new group entirely (as persistency of elements is preferred in almost all cases) - as you will only need to demolish EVERYTHING in your originals - and again, that would involve the sub-selection of all group elements to demolish them, (select all in view comes in handy here to speed things up a little - as would a custom SP set to NOT instance-by-group that you could apply to elements to isolate them)
      I'm messing with this now and based on the 15 minutes of tinkering I've done setting a parameter that you then filter in a view seems to be the best option for maintaining consistency. If you leverage the filter in 3D view it isn't too hard to select all instances in view and change the demolition phase of everything at once. Your parameter doesn't need to be shared (unless I'm missing something?) and should apply to all categories that you will need to demolish.
      Attached Files
      Revit for newbies - A starting point for RFO


      chad
      BEER: Better, Efficient, Elegant, Repeatable.

      Comment


        #4
        Well it may not be so bad. The buildings have 2 floors with 4 units on each floor, and right now we're only modelling one floor, 4 units.

        So I was able to get the various demolished items to be demolished by using the hammer tool OUTSIDE the group editor. I did the same for each demolished element in each of the 4 units. Then I placed the new items, and made a separate group for those, and copy/mirrored that new group around as needed.

        It appears to be working except my demolished doors are wonky, and I assume it has to do with their host wall and infilling wall elements. The demolished doors are there when I move the mouse over the existing construction group, but they're not actually showing either in an Existing or in a New Construction view, or even a Demo view set to Show Previous + Demo. If I tab-click on one of the doors there's a symbol to "Restore excluded group member to group instance", and if I do that it puts the door back into the group but on the New Construction phase.

        I ended up just placing the demolished doors outside of the group, and copy/mirror where needed, then setting them to be demolished in New Construction.

        It wasn't too bad here, but this is a huge problem for large hotels or apartment buildings with a large number of identical units that all need identical renovations. Anything that is hosted which cuts the host, and gets an infill piece of the host when demolished, seems to make groups go crazy.
        Last edited by PatrickGSR94; September 27, 2017, 02:03 PM.

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          #5
          Originally posted by cellophane View Post
          I'm messing with this now and based on the 15 minutes of tinkering I've done setting a parameter that you then filter in a view seems to be the best option for maintaining consistency. If you leverage the filter in 3D view it isn't too hard to select all instances in view and change the demolition phase of everything at once. Your parameter doesn't need to be shared (unless I'm missing something?) and should apply to all categories that you will need to demolish.
          Well dang, your file is in 2018 and I'm still using 2017.2.2.

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            #6
            I don't really understand why phasing is separate from groups. Yes, the phasing properties are Instance properties, but all the other instance properties of elements populate to all group instances. Why not phase created/demolished? If I change a door swing angle instance parameter in one group, that gets populated to all the group instance.

            I understand that there may be a need to demolish particular elements of some but not all group instances, sometimes. But other times it would be really helpful if they could be included in the group definition.

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              #7
              2017 version enclosed. Not quite as fancy but you get the point :thumbsup:
              Attached Files
              Revit for newbies - A starting point for RFO


              chad
              BEER: Better, Efficient, Elegant, Repeatable.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by cellophane View Post
                2017 version enclosed. Not quite as fancy but you get the point :thumbsup:
                Thanks. It's not a problem having entire objects demolished in a group (a complete wall with a door). But try editing your group, and setting the top (outer) door to Demolished in the New phase, and then hit Finish on the group editor and see what happens.

                Comment


                  #9
                  instead of editing the group - just tab through, select the objects, and change the demolition phase. Or use the hammer. I like using the hammer

                  https://www.screencast.com/t/F097p8t5c2
                  Revit for newbies - A starting point for RFO


                  chad
                  BEER: Better, Efficient, Elegant, Repeatable.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by cellophane View Post
                    instead of editing the group - just tab through, select the objects, and change the demolition phase. Or use the hammer. I like using the hammer

                    https://www.screencast.com/t/F097p8t5c2
                    Yeah but if you have 100 group instances that all need the same objects demolished? It would be a major pain.

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