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doors with sidelite vs window

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    doors with sidelite vs window

    Our current office standard is to document door frames that contain sidelites or transoms as both a door and a window type (sort of like storefront). So even if the Revit door family contains all those elements, we would need to create a separate tag that would indicate the door type and the window type. In essence, we are really tagging the panel with the door tag and the rest of the frame and glazing with the window type. Our graphical door legend then directs you to the window elevations for the frame dimensions for the sidelite and transom, and the door schedule tells you which panel type goes in the frame.
    To me this seems inefficient, and as far as the Revit workflow goes, over complicated. Our door families already contain all the sidelite info, so it seems to me that there isn't really a need to create a separate window type tag or elevation.

    My question, I guess, is whether you consider your doors with sidelites and transoms "doors", and then schedule and create graphical legends as doors. Or do you consider them a window type? This is probably an office standard kind of question, so I'm just wondering how everyone documents these types of conditions.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by t1shep; July 24, 2011, 09:16 PM.

    #2
    If it's got any part meant to walk through, it's a door... That's kind of the basic rule I use. Unless it's too big, then it becomes a curtain wall. What's too big? depends on project size, complexity, amount of detail needed.
    To me your method sounds somewhat confusing. I wouldn't like to have a legend component spread over multiple legends...
    Martijn de Riet
    Professional Revit Consultant | Revit API Developer
    MdR Advies
    Planta1 Revit Online Consulting

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      #3
      I agree. I have some doors with side lights in my buildings. The doors schedule and tag as doors, the side lites as windows.
      Dan

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        #4
        The way we would answer this is to ask this question before modeling/placing families in the model:

        Are the frames going to be hollow metal, wood, or aluminum storefront? Once that is determined:

        We would then decide how to model the families accordingly, and then perhaps use legends to place them on Door Types and Frame Types sheets and dimension the frames as separate elevations for each Frame Type, and the doors (panels only) as Door Types.

        If aluminum frames are used, we would use a Revit storefront.
        If Hollow Metal frames are used we would use Door Families with HM frames
        If wood frames are used, we would use Door Families with wood frames.

        Sidelights and other such glazed openings with frames in most commercial construction are NOT "windows"--for example a Marvin Window, Pella, etc--i.e. a pre-mfg'd unit that gets inserted into a punched opening in a wall--not a portion of a storefront assembly.

        We use E-Specs for Revit, and we must use the correct families and Assembly Codes to link the model to the Specs and use the correct classification in UniFormat
        and MasterSpec. Always think of the INFORMATION part of Revit and how the objects should fit into the big picture of classifications and specs.
        Cliff B. Collins
        Registered Architect
        The Lamar Johnson Collaborative Architects, St. Louis, MO
        Autodesk Expert Elite

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          #5
          Originally posted by dzatto View Post
          I agree. I have some doors with side lights in my buildings. The doors schedule and tag as doors, the side lites as windows.
          How do you have your door families setup for these kinds of conditions?
          To me, it seems so much easier to have the door with the sidelites and transoms as a door family. Create it once, make it parametric, place it hundreds of times. I don't have to deal with storefronts and having to create different groups or such to repeat the storefront setup all over the building. If it is created as storefront, when I need to flip the door or the whole assembly, groups don't like to be mirrored.
          Can you nest a window family in a door family and tag it as such in the project file?
          I agree that storefront is probably the "correct" way to do it, but seems like the less efficient way...Although we use the storefront/curtain wall tool to create all our "windows" (punched or otherwise) so it's not completely out of the question. But, damn, I spent a lot of time creating our door families.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by t1shep View Post
            How do you have your door families setup for these kinds of conditions?
            To me, it seems so much easier to have the door with the sidelites and transoms as a door family. Create it once, make it parametric, place it hundreds of times. I don't have to deal with storefronts and having to create different groups or such to repeat the storefront setup all over the building. If it is created as storefront, when I need to flip the door or the whole assembly, groups don't like to be mirrored.
            Can you nest a window family in a door family and tag it as such in the project file?
            I agree that storefront is probably the "correct" way to do it, but seems like the less efficient way...Although we use the storefront/curtain wall tool to create all our "windows" (punched or otherwise) so it's not completely out of the question. But, damn, I spent a lot of time creating our door families.
            That's exactly how I did it. I don't have a store front, though. I just have a glass door with a full length side lite in 2 spots for my base layout. (I design lube centers and those doors/ windows are in the wall that separates the waiting area from the shop area). But anyway, I nested a window in a door family, added a few parameters so I could change the door size and window size independently. I can also flip the doors, no problem.

            My stuff is in no way as detailed as everyone else's stuff is, but it works for my buildings.
            Dan

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              #7
              Originally posted by cliff collins View Post
              The way we would answer this is to ask this question before modeling/placing families in the model:

              Are the frames going to be hollow metal, wood, or aluminum storefront? Once that is determined:

              We would then decide how to model the families accordingly, and then perhaps use legends to place them on Door Types and Frame Types sheets and dimension the frames as separate elevations for each Frame Type, and the doors (panels only) as Door Types.

              If aluminum frames are used, we would use a Revit storefront.
              If Hollow Metal frames are used we would use Door Families with HM frames
              If wood frames are used, we would use Door Families with wood frames.

              Sidelights and other such glazed openings with frames in most commercial construction are NOT "windows"--for example a Marvin Window, Pella, etc--i.e. a pre-mfg'd unit that gets inserted into a punched opening in a wall--not a portion of a storefront assembly.

              We use E-Specs for Revit, and we must use the correct families and Assembly Codes to link the model to the Specs and use the correct classification in UniFormat
              and MasterSpec. Always think of the INFORMATION part of Revit and how the objects should fit into the big picture of classifications and specs.
              So, here is a typical situation in our project...
              They are Hollow Metal door frames. The typical doors you see, with the sidelite and transom and door with a lite, I have created as a door family. You can also see that we have a more obvious storefront condition as well. So, the typical doors I'm showing...how do you create yours?
              As a side topic, I'd love to hear how you like e-SPECS. We're thinking of going that direction...send me a personal message if you have time.

              Thanks.
              Attached Files
              Last edited by t1shep; July 26, 2011, 03:11 PM.

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                #8
                All,

                The Materials and frame profiles for a Hollow Metal VS Wood VS Aluminum Storefront/Curtainwall are what should drive this. Model the frames as they will be specified
                and think how the shop drawings will be produced from the Revit drawings and/or models.

                Door families work well for HM or Wood.

                Storefront works well for Storefront Aluminum extruded assemblies. Make sense?
                Cliff B. Collins
                Registered Architect
                The Lamar Johnson Collaborative Architects, St. Louis, MO
                Autodesk Expert Elite

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by cliff collins View Post
                  All,

                  The Materials and frame profiles for a Hollow Metal VS Wood VS Aluminum Storefront/Curtainwall are what should drive this. Model the frames as they will be specified
                  and think how the shop drawings will be produced from the Revit drawings and/or models.

                  Door families work well for HM or Wood.

                  Storefront works well for Storefront Aluminum extruded assemblies. Make sense?
                  Sure, makes sense to think of it this way.
                  But in the effort of flexibility, efficiency, and user interface and understanding, if you draw/model some as doors, others as storefront, and other parts as windows, how do you manage all the different parts and variations in placement (door vs. storefront)? How do you make sure your users use the right type of door?
                  Let's say you have a hollow metal frame like door 102A in the previous image. You model that as a storefront system. Now you need to place that door and frame type hundreds of times in a project, some are mirrored some have different door swings, etc. If it is storefront, the only way (other than copy and paste) is to make it a group, but my understanding is that groups don't like to be mirrored, right? And can you change the door swing in a group without affecting all the group instances?
                  So, do you still model this as storefront, and attempt to manage the groups, or do you model it as a door and nested window? What happens when you have a project that has an additional door and frame type that varies? Do you create additional door and window families, or model everything as storefront as it is the most flexible in a project environment?
                  Are there pitfalls to modeling all doors and windows as storefront/curtain walls that would be managed with different groups?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Groups not being able to be mirrored is a fallacy created by people who dont know the best practices for using Groups, period. We do all of our storefronts out of Revit Curtain Wall, and Model Groups. Every one of them gets grouped. if the swing needs to flip, its a different group definition- since it actually is different. Even though mirroed is *technically* different, we call them out as the same storefront config (OH), and we mirror the group. Ive been doing it this way since version 8.1, and ive only once had a problem with the group mirroring. That problem, by the way, was operator error (me).

                    That said: We never use Windows for Sidelights. Its either Storefront/Curtain Wall, or its a Door Frame.
                    Aaron "selfish AND petulant" Maller |P A R A L L A X T E A M | Practice Technology Implementation
                    @Web | @Twitter | @LinkedIn | @Email

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