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Thread: Help me Understand Keynotes

  1. #1
    Senior Member Charles Karl's Avatar
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    Help me Understand Keynotes

    I am trying to understand the use of keynotes, and this is what I have noticed so far:

    I have two different basic walls
    Both have a metal stud layer, one is 4" and the other 2 1/2"
    When I use legend to pick up specific sub keynote parameters of for one, it changes the other as well.

    Is it possible for these parameters to act indepedently of one another?

  2. #2
    Mr. Revit OpEd
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    Keynotes are derived from a supporting text file. Revit draws on your preset list of keynotes and can either apply them to parameter values for individual element types or materials. A third kind called User Keynotes is more "flexible" in that you can apply ad hoc keynotes to elements that may already have a Element keynote assigned.

    Take a wall for example, if you look at the Type Properties of a wall you'll find a Keynote parameter under the Identity Data group. Nearly all Revit elements have this parameter. When you apply a Element Keynote to a wall this parameter is what it draws the information from or that you assign to the element if it hasn't got a value yet. The value comes from the keynote text file and it can only store one value at a time. This means you can tag other walls of the same type and get exactly the same keynote.

    If you apply a User Keynote to the same wall you find that Revit will let you pick a different keynote value than is stored in the Keynote Type Parameter. I can't tell you where the User Keynote is stored because they don't "show us". We can even apply multiple User Keynotes to the same element. It's kind of cool really, I can identify something with very consistent keynote values AND have a set keynote value for certain shared conditions too.

    There is an application called Keynote Manager that makes editing the Keynote file a much nicer experience. Fwiw, I wrote much of the text regarding the keynotes in the Autodesk Help documentation now on the Wiki Help site. I did it for the 2009 release when it was added and it hasn't really changed since. My theater construction background is evidenced in the example of adding additional keynotes, shows the theater rigging CSI numbers 11060, 61 etc... (Specialty Equipment division) Read through the help documentation as you dig in.

    Each project can have its own keynote file or share one with your office as a standard. A project can only reference one at a time.

    As for your specific question, you'd have to either assign different materials to the wall stud layers or assign a Element Keynote to one wall and then apply a User Keynote to the other. You have to decide how far to go down the "rabbit hole". The more specific you want a keynote to be, the more specific you have to define elements like walls, floors etc and materials that are used with them. When you get tired of tunneling the User Keynote can provide some relief.
    Last edited by Steve_Stafford; April 1st, 2012 at 05:16 PM.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Charles Karl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve_Stafford View Post
    Keynotes are derived from a supporting text file. Revit draws on your preset list of keynotes and can either apply them to parameter values for individual element types or materials. A third kind called User Keynotes is more "flexible" in that you can apply ad hoc keynotes to elements that may already have a Element keynote assigned.

    Take a wall for example, if you look at the Type Properties of a wall you'll find a Keynote parameter under the Identity Data group. Nearly all Revit elements have this parameter. When you apply a Element Keynote to a wall this parameter is what it draws the information from or that you assign to the element is it hasn't got a value yet. The value comes from the keynote text file and it can only store one value at a time. This means you can tag other walls of the same time and get exactly the same keynote.

    If you apply a User Keynote to the same wall you find that Revit will let you pick a different keynote value than is stored in the Keynote Type Parameter. I can't tell you where the User Keynote is store because they don't "show us". We can even apply multiple User Keynotes to the same element. It's kind of cool really, I can identify something with very consistent keynote values AND have a set keynote value for certain shared conditions too.

    There is an application called Keynote Manager that makes editing the Keynote file a much nicer experience. Fwiw, I wrote much of the text regarding the keynotes in the Autodesk Help documentation now on the Wiki Help site. I did it for the 2009 release when it was added and it hasn't really changed since. My theater construction background is evidenced in the example of adding additional keynotes, shows the theater rigging CSI numbers 11060, 61 etc... (Specialty Equipment division) Read through the help documentation as you dig in.

    Each project can have its own keynote file or share one with your office as a standard. A project can only reference one at a time.

    As for your specific question, you'd have to either assign different materials to the wall stud layers or assign a Element Keynote to one wall and then apply a User Keynote to the other. You have to decide how far to go down the "rabbit hole". The more specific you want a keynote to be, the more specific you have to define elements like walls, floors etc and materials that are used with them. When you get tired of tunneling the User Keynote can provide some relief.
    WOW!,..Thank you Steve.

    I'll give it a go with the User Keynote.


    -Chuck
    Last edited by Charles Karl; March 30th, 2012 at 11:35 PM.

  4. #4
    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Karl View Post
    WOW!,..Thank you Steve.

    I'll give it a go with the User Keynote.


    -Chuck
    The only issue with User Keynotes is that they aren't tied to anything. If you tag wall 1 with a user keynote and tag it somewhere else with another user keynote it won't pick up your first note - which if you aren't careful can lead to coordination issues. Your keynotes are tied to a specific object and everytime you tag that object you know your note will be correct (unless your object is wrong)

    edit: Keynote Manager is AWESOME. editing keynotes manually is an epic fail.
    Last edited by cellophane; April 1st, 2012 at 06:50 PM.

  5. #5
    Mr. Revit OpEd
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    There are a lot of "keynotes" that should be but end up as text because people don't realize how easy it is to establish consistent notes with User Keynotes. The keynote parameter should be used when the value must be the same for every instance of that type of element. The User Keynote is for those common notes that aren't tied to the same object every time.
    Last edited by Steve_Stafford; April 1st, 2012 at 07:21 PM.

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    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve_Stafford View Post
    There are a lot of keynotes that should be but end up as text because people don't realize how easy it is to establish consistent notes with User Keynotes. The keynote parameter should be used when the value must be the same for every instance of that type of element. The User Keynote is for those common notes that aren't tied to the same object every time.
    Could you elaborate?

    For instance - if I'm detailing a wall I'll have a 2x sill plate, a double 2x header and various blocking in the wall. I can (and have been) creating a seperate type for the sill, a different family for the header and a different type for the blocking. What's the advantage of using a user keynote over what I've been doing? They both seem to involve equal amounts of management, but it seems easier to swap a type and know that my note will be correct than pick a different note in every instance of that type. Same with Type X or Type C GWB vs regular GWB. A new family seems easier and more BIMie.

  7. #7
    Mr. Revit OpEd
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    Imagine a data receptacle plan. The data receptacles are essentially all the same (lets pretend they are all 2 drops) except for where they are installed. Some are mounted in a wall, some in a cabinet at a sales desk, some in a kiosk (free standing display), some are available for visitors to use and others are not. As far as a schedule to summarize them, then purchasing and installing them is concerned the faceplates and back boxes are potentially identical. To apply a keynote to define how they are different in use we'd have to consider separate families or separate types so we could get different keynote values.

    If we create four or five unique keynote entries we can apply them to the data outlet according to their use as User Keynotes. The keynote legend would display the information for each condition on the sheet and/or in the master keynote legend. The same information could be displayed using a tag showing a custom instance parameter but not summarized in a list on the side of the sheet as easily. Nor could we avoid different values being entered by different people.

    An example User Keynote might be:

    "Kiosk mounted data receptacles are to be mounted at 12" above counter surface. Provide one extra run of CAT 6 cable without terminations, for future expansion."

    The same device could also have a User Keynote that says:

    "Data faceplate color selection must be coordinated with interior design final material and color selections with owner."

    In the plan view we'd see one device and two keynote tags with different numbers adjacent to each other. If I needed to do the same thing for other receptacles I'd have to create new types every time I needed a keynote to say something even slightly different.

    Keynotes as a practice is derived from the desire to reduce clutter on the sheet and reduce the chance of writing instructions differently on different sheets. Using types to control the information is still risky because we could type different information in different types and in different families. If we are going to supply instance parameter values routinely we run the risk of similar mistakes while trying to be consistent. Since User Keynotes are pulled from the same source, as long as we all click on the same keynote the information will be the same everywhere.
    Last edited by Steve_Stafford; April 1st, 2012 at 08:03 PM.
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  8. #8
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    I am having an issue with Keynotes and was hoping someone may point me in the right direction.

    I keynotes set up by sheet.
    Here is my problem:
    I have a set of elevation notes, one says "shingles over blah blah blah, refer to roof plan"
    On the roof plan I have a note that says "Premium shingles over blah blah blah" (not the same note)

    But when using element keynotes I can only select one.
    I would prefer not to use User Keynotes unless I have to.

    My question is: Is there a way to do this that I am missing that will allow me to have the same element have different notes in different views without using User Keynotes.

    Thanks,
    Evan

  9. #9
    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    Why would you use different notes?

    You could use a Material Keynote and a Keynote. Assign the keynote to the roof "Shingles over..." and the Material KN to the Shingle Material.

    This does not let you use a different note for the same element but does let you use both notes with minimal effort.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by cellophane View Post
    Why would you use different notes?
    My keynotes aren't only specifying the material, they are giving instructions and referring to other views.

    I am still having issues with notes showing up in the wrong views.

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