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Thread: Wall Types, Legends, Schedules and Managing it all

  1. #11
    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    Uh, those ARE entirely different walls, though. And whatever contractor you are talking to, isnt talking logically. They may hate 50 wall types, but using letters as the designator doesnt make it any less work. So you dont show the material layers at all? I mean, 2 layers on one side and 1 layer on each side fundamentally means the thing has to get built in a different location. I would sure as heck want them to be different wall types.

  2. #12
    Moderator Drew's Avatar
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    I can see yor point.
    Yeah, we do show the the layers to the wall and the material tags indicate how the layers are built up and what material they are. All this is shown on the partition set out plans.
    We were asked to condense the amount of wall types and not having one wall code for 2x13mm dry wall on one side and a different wall code for 2x13mm WR Dry wall on one side does this.
    They are both the same overall width so the code describes them as "metal stud 102mm width" ie MS102
    All the walls are set out to C/L of the stud, so they are located in the correct locations.

    I'm not saying this is ideal, nor is it the best way and i am always searching for more effective ways to do anything, for now it works, tomorrow it may change completely

  3. #13
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    I'm agreeing with Aaron on this one. Different layer setup is most definately a different wall type. If the contractor thinks having so many different walls is giving him a headache well, he should think about limiting his work to residential projects...
    There are some things though that I would consider for instance based parameters: acoustics, fire rating, and so on.

  4. #14
    Member rosskirby's Avatar
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    We went with the drafting view route as well, since our partition types don't change that much from project to project. It took a while for everyone to get used to which type is which, but it's one less thing they have to worry about having coordinated, since the wall types in the project are already pre-tagged with the type mark corresponding with the schedule.

    Some people were worried that the GCs would get confused when we only used a few of the partition types, but it hasn't happened yet.

    Images below are the static drafting view of partition types on the sheet, an enlarged view of one of the details, and a list of all the interior walls already in the project.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Wall Types, Legends, Schedules and Managing it all-p-types-sheet.jpg   Wall Types, Legends, Schedules and Managing it all-p-type-enlarged.jpg   Wall Types, Legends, Schedules and Managing it all-p-types-list.jpg  
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  5. #15
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    Our approach to walls

    Our firm is revising our wall tagging/modeling/specifying system right now so this thread was very interesting to me. We took the approach of first finding a coding system that would allow any variations of walls possible, even if they were not typically needed, at least the system could accommodate them. We then modelled many of the common variations that our office uses. Our library is fairly extensive, and likely we could have left many options out of the initial effort, but once started, creating the many types was not that time consuming.
    The system uses a 4 digit coding system and then has options to add modifiers for instances of walls that are one-offs. Attached is a diagram of the system coding. All walls have the materials in them as well as UL or GA numbers for fire ratings and STC listings where available. We also have a tag that is automatically generated on an Assembly Sheet. It shows a small section of the wall with all of it's components called out, the fire rating and STC if applicable.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  6. #16
    Administrator Gordon Price's Avatar
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    1: Type naming/marking that minimizes the perception of too many "types". I use the Uniformat prefix on walls, so A is structural, B is shell and C is interior partitions. Then a number, and when multiple "types" differ only by the size of the structure or the like, a decimal. So while three stud sizes requires three wall types in Revit, the contractor sees C1.1, C1.2 & C1.3, which are also documented as a single "Type" on the Partition Types sheet, with a schedule or notes for the differences. The other benefit is that a fourth variation can be added with very minimal renumber, and no change to all the other types. I HATE when wall type 1 is CMU and 15 other types follow, and a second CMU added at 80% CDs forces a renumber of all the other types so it can be Type 2 next to the other CMU. And if I hate that, I know contractors REALLY hate that.

    2: I use the Design Option approach for all legends. So wall and partition types, but also door/frame/relite types, casework types, and also all my finishes. All are off to the side in an area called the Type Garden, and the comment parameter and some management legends help ensure that everything in the model is documented in the type garden and nothing in the type garden is extraneous. It is this management part that necessitates using Design options rather than a simpler "previous phase" approach. To enable things like FInish Legends on multiple sheets, I use dependent views. I just make a dependent view for each sheet that needs the legend. Not ideal, but sucks a LOT less than the basically worthless build in Legends.

    3: I only include some very basic "design" types in the template. All else lives in a Types Library RVT file. There are views there that have all the different (system family) types organized by construction, i.e. all wood framed exterior walls in a view, and all metal framed interior partition in another, etc. But also there are some "Typical palette" views, where a common combination of, say CMU and metal framed interior and exterior types for for schools is shown together. The work flow is to go into this file, put examples of all the content your project needs (as of early DD, when you actually have decisions on this stuff) and then copy/paste into your project. The file is read only so nothing gets jacked in use. FWIW, this file has roofs and floors and ceilings and curtain walls and storefronts and typical stairs and ramps and railings as well. In all cases, you can get just the content you need, at 80-95% completion. In addition to the usual "construction" types, I have a finishes library, and it could very well contain hundreds or more finish floors of carpet and tile and sheet goods and such. I like to get a list of finishes used in each project, and I have schedules of the finishes in the Types Library, and any finish that has been used more than twice in the last 24 months goes in the Types Library as a part of year end maintenance. Now if I could just have an image included in a material schedule and export to the Materials section of the BIM Manual in OneNote that would be dandy.

    Gordon
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Price View Post
    1: Type naming/marking that minimizes the perception of too many "types". I use the Uniformat prefix on walls, so A is structural, B is shell and C is interior partitions. Then a number, and when multiple "types" differ only by the size of the structure or the like, a decimal. So while three stud sizes requires three wall types in Revit, the contractor sees C1.1, C1.2 & C1.3, which are also documented as a single "Type" on the Partition Types sheet, with a schedule or notes for the differences. The other benefit is that a fourth variation can be added with very minimal renumber, and no change to all the other types. I HATE when wall type 1 is CMU and 15 other types follow, and a second CMU added at 80% CDs forces a renumber of all the other types so it can be Type 2 next to the other CMU. And if I hate that, I know contractors REALLY hate that.

    2: I use the Design Option approach for all legends. So wall and partition types, but also door/frame/relite types, casework types, and also all my finishes. All are off to the side in an area called the Type Garden, and the comment parameter and some management legends help ensure that everything in the model is documented in the type garden and nothing in the type garden is extraneous. It is this management part that necessitates using Design options rather than a simpler "previous phase" approach. To enable things like FInish Legends on multiple sheets, I use dependent views. I just make a dependent view for each sheet that needs the legend. Not ideal, but sucks a LOT less than the basically worthless build in Legends.

    3: I only include some very basic "design" types in the template. All else lives in a Types Library RVT file. There are views there that have all the different (system family) types organized by construction, i.e. all wood framed exterior walls in a view, and all metal framed interior partition in another, etc. But also there are some "Typical palette" views, where a common combination of, say CMU and metal framed interior and exterior types for for schools is shown together. The work flow is to go into this file, put examples of all the content your project needs (as of early DD, when you actually have decisions on this stuff) and then copy/paste into your project. The file is read only so nothing gets jacked in use. FWIW, this file has roofs and floors and ceilings and curtain walls and storefronts and typical stairs and ramps and railings as well. In all cases, you can get just the content you need, at 80-95% completion. In addition to the usual "construction" types, I have a finishes library, and it could very well contain hundreds or more finish floors of carpet and tile and sheet goods and such. I like to get a list of finishes used in each project, and I have schedules of the finishes in the Types Library, and any finish that has been used more than twice in the last 24 months goes in the Types Library as a part of year end maintenance. Now if I could just have an image included in a material schedule and export to the Materials section of the BIM Manual in OneNote that would be dandy.

    Gordon
    As someone who works on the QC side and doesn't actually work in the model, I'm not sure I understand everything you say above. Two comments though:

    We considered Uniformat for our coding, but decided CSI Masterformat made more sense for ease of understanding by staff and contractors bidding the work. Our first number is the wall code is 3, 4, 6 or 9 depending on the material; concrete, masonry, wood or metal studs. Second number is fire rating and then the last two define any combination of finishes that could be added. We set it up to allow user created assemblies to be created and have the same idea. If we find that the same assembly code keeps showing up in models, we will add it to the permanent library.

    Our library is in a separate read-only file and walls that are required for the project are copy/pasted into the model. From what I understand, they live in a pre-historic stage during the documentation so they don't show up accidently when we print the set of drawings.

  8. #18
    Administrator Gordon Price's Avatar
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    ebressman,
    interesting that you mention the CSI numbering. I am in the process of building a revised naming convention that better uses CSI for the actual type names. And I should note that the simplified naming is for the type mark only. If there are three different interior partitions in a project, I just want C1, C2 and C3 as the marks. But I can see the value in actually having C3, C6.1 and C6.2, for example. And perhaps C6.2.1 & C6.2.2 when C6.2 if fundamentally different from C6.1, but .1 and .2 are different only in the dimension of the structure. I need to look at some old projects and see if, with decimals for dimensional variations, would 10 types be enough to cover both interior and exterior conditions and the Uniformat prefix could be dropped. January tasks...
    That said the types that are identified with those marks could be much longer. Which brings up an important issue. There are really, in my mind, as many as three contexts as it relates to identifying content. There is the mark in the document set, there is the type name in the project, and there is the type name in the library, and depending on an office's work and workflow, three completely different approaches might be very appropriate. I have worked in offices of 100 and smaller, and I tend to think the type name can be the same in the library and the project, and users just need to be trained to understand the convention, but in larger firms or projects with more Revit newbies I can see a verbose name in the library, and when the Job Captain or whoever pulls stuff from the library, they rename to something more "architectural" and less "Revity." What I never like is having the type name match the type mark. If the mark needs to change, it shouldn't require a second step of changing the name too. Ideally the type name should actually describe the component system, while the mark should just locate the full graphic description in the types sheet.

    Gordon
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Price View Post
    ebressman,
    interesting that you mention the CSI numbering. I am in the process of building a revised naming convention that better uses CSI for the actual type names. And I should note that the simplified naming is for the type mark only. If there are three different interior partitions in a project, I just want C1, C2 and C3 as the marks. But the types that are identified with those marks could be much longer. Which brings up an important issue. There are really, in my mind, as many as three contexts as it relates to identifying content. There is the mark in the document set, there is the type name in the project, and there is the type name in the library, and depending on an office's work and workflow, three completely different approaches might be very appropriate. I have worked in offices of 100 and smaller, and I tend to think the type name can be the same in the library and the project, and users just need to be trained to understand the convention, but in larger firms or projects with more Revit newbies I can see a verbose name in the library, and when the Job Captain or whoever pulls stuff from the library, they rename to something more "architectural" and less "Revity."

    Gordon

    FWIW
    Part of our strategy is that EVERY project in our office (and we are a large office) should have the same type marks used for the same walls across projects. Our system is set up so the walls have a common number and then there is room to add project specific modifiers. Insulation, atypical stud gauge for metal, spacing other than 24" for studs, etc. The type name in the library is set up to allow modellers to quickly filter through the library to find the assembly they want. The type name has a suffix at the end that the project team can edit to help with locating where the walls go in the model (corrdior, demising, stair enclosures, etc). This means that the type name in the project is based on the type name in the library, but can be different if the team wants it to be. Here's an example: "WD 6 (6111) - Purpose" is the name in the library. This is a wood stud wall (WD) that is made with 2 x 6 studs (6) and has the following wall code - 6111. The 6111 indicates wood studs, one hour rated with one layer of 5/8" type x on both sides. The "-Purpose" can then be edited by the teams to suit their needs.
    At first glance the coding may look complicated, but since the layering of materials is consistent no matter what the core is, once the users learn the numbers, it actually seems to go pretty quickly.

  10. #20
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    Aaron, interested in learning more about your wall naming convention. You mentioned "C6" and "D6" are the same thickness but different # layers. CAn you elaborate on your naming system.

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