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Thread: BIM Level 2 / ISO / British Standards etc

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    BIM Level 2 / ISO / British Standards etc

    I'm not sure whether this is in the right place, apologies if not.

    It seems like we have a fairly wide spectrum of users from all around the globe here which is great. I'm wondering what standards you all work to in your countries? Obviously we in the UK work to British Standards but also use ISOs where they apply. Do you have BIM level 2 type standards in the coutries where you work or is Revit not used for BIM and is just used for more traditional drawing creation?

    I'm interested as the thread down below about problems associated with tagging of plumbing fixtures is one that really shouldnt really exist if the British Standard is applied which made me wonder if there isnt a similar standard in other countries or if the job wasnt been done as a BIM job.

    Obviously the publishing of ISO 19650 is going to open up a lot more people to using the standards that we've been using in the UK and im just wondering what people are currently working with / to.

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    Forum Addict tzframpton's Avatar
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    Not sure about the USA in general, but here in the state of Texas, there is not a state-mandated standard that I know exists. Projects related to the state (schools, government facilities, etc) may have their own standard per department, but that's it. For private based work in Texas, the standard is agreed upon in advance and usually follows BIMForum LOD 350 spec for BIM modeling. As for who's responsible for what, that's usually a project by project basis as far as I know.

    -TZ

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    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    If you re-read that entire thread, a million things are wrong on that project, that has more going on than just not having project standards: No kick off meeting, no early conversation, no discussions, etc.

    In the USA, there are a NUMBER of Standards, and none of them are "widely" adopted. My guess is (much to the chagrin of the folks in the UK) the ISO standard wont be any different, here.

    Mind you, that doesnt mean people arent using a standard. It just means they arent using that standard. We have our own internal standard, that we use (us, a number of our clients, and a number of our clients clients), and they solve all the same issues: We know who does what, we know what items overlap in multiple models (there are many), and so on. Having seen the ISO, my guess is it will not have veri widespread adoption in the US.

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    Forum Addict tzframpton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    Having seen the ISO, my guess is it will not have veri widespread adoption in the US.
    I'm curious to know your thoughts on this?

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    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    With respect, i dont want to see the thread devolve in to the "THE UNITED STATES WILL DO IT BECAUSE WERE CALLING IT A GLOBAL STANDARD OMG WEEEEE" that always comes with discussing the standards originating over there. I would rather just wait and see what happens. Everyone has an opinion, of course.

    I think "standards" are a great thing. I think everyone working on ONE standad is also a great thing (in concept). But i also have worked both in academia, and in real practice. I think a lot of standards that get developed by large groups of people trying to achieve certain things, often lose sight of both bigger picture value adds, and smaller picture (but major influencing) inconveniences. Having said that, i dont think its an amazing standard, and i see marginal to no upside (for a group like mine) to adopt it, when what we have already works much better (in my opinion, and yes, i realize that doesnt carry much weight with the folks *over there*).

    The National CAD Standard was the same way, in the AutoCAD days (and even in the early BIM days, as the early versions of the NBIMS relied (grpahically and drawing set organizationally) on the NCS still: Having everyone on a standard was a great vision, except the standard sucked ass even at the most basic Drawing Set Organizaton level.

    If i had to go back to working in CAD tomorrow, i wouldnt use the NCS either. It simply isnt true that JUST because you arent using the "International Standard" no one can understand what you are doing, or why. If your standards are clear, they should speak for themselves. People confuse "not having any standards" and "having bad standards" with "not using some bodies developed standard." Not the same thing. Not even close.
    tzframpton and tidalwave1 like this.

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    that's interesting twiceroadsfool. the ISO isnt really a standard in terms of modelling, the whole LOD / LOI thing has gone in favour of "level of information need" (never an acronym ) it's more a "way of working" in terms of having documents to form part of the contract from a very early point, a common data environment where all parties shared their models and probably most importantly a consistent way of numbering drawings and naming of documents so people can find information they need from other consultants. Its use is to manage the life-cycle of the building from design through to demolition. Facilities Management teams are particularly keen on this as it helps them manage the day-to-day running of a building once it is in use. Maintenance of a building becomes easier, cheaper and more efficient.

    I know autodesk are making bim360 into a common data environment that is compliant with the ISO so it will be interesting to see if that increases a take-up on it from the US point of view.
    Last edited by robp; May 29th, 2019 at 03:35 PM.

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    Forum Addict tzframpton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    With respect, i dont want to see the thread devolve in to the "THE UNITED STATES WILL DO IT BECAUSE WERE CALLING IT A GLOBAL STANDARD OMG WEEEEE" that always comes with discussing the standards originating over there. I would rather just wait and see what happens. Everyone has an opinion, of course.

    I think "standards" are a great thing. I think everyone working on ONE standad is also a great thing (in concept). But i also have worked both in academia, and in real practice. I think a lot of standards that get developed by large groups of people trying to achieve certain things, often lose sight of both bigger picture value adds, and smaller picture (but major influencing) inconveniences. Having said that, i dont think its an amazing standard, and i see marginal to no upside (for a group like mine) to adopt it, when what we have already works much better (in my opinion, and yes, i realize that doesnt carry much weight with the folks *over there*).

    The National CAD Standard was the same way, in the AutoCAD days (and even in the early BIM days, as the early versions of the NBIMS relied (grpahically and drawing set organizationally) on the NCS still: Having everyone on a standard was a great vision, except the standard sucked ass even at the most basic Drawing Set Organizaton level.

    If i had to go back to working in CAD tomorrow, i wouldnt use the NCS either. It simply isnt true that JUST because you arent using the "International Standard" no one can understand what you are doing, or why. If your standards are clear, they should speak for themselves. People confuse "not having any standards" and "having bad standards" with "not using some bodies developed standard." Not the same thing. Not even close.
    Good perspective, one that I agree with.

    -TZ

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    Member jsnyder's Avatar
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    BIM Level 2 / ISO / British Standards etc-standards.png
    Last edited by jsnyder; May 29th, 2019 at 04:46 PM.

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    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsnyder View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	standards.png 
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ID:	36720
    That is still one of my favorites!

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    One of the advantages of BS1192 (now ISO 19650) is that here in the UK it is not one of many competing standards, it is THE standard. We are swiftly moving to a situation where it is being widely adopted. I believe that for our practice, pretty much every project that has commenced within the last few years is requiring adoption of the standard and we only have a few legacy projects where our own practice standard has been used. We are at the point where we are looking to re-write our practice standard to be fully compliant with ISO 19650. I'd bet most large practices are in a similar position.

    There is wiggle room within the standard to allow plenty of flexibility in how we actually implement it. It is not a straight-jacket, and for the most part does not prescribe how we actually create the model. Even the LOD/LOI definitions are pretty general and allow for sensible interpretation of how much we develop everything at each stage. We are not told what software to use, only that it needs to be defined and coordinated at the start of the project - and I don't believe that anyone would disagree with that! Even though use of a CDE is prescribed, again we are not told what this must be - only that it must be defined and agreed at the start of the project and it can be pretty much any method of organising and managing a set of current infomation.

    There are other standards that do get more prescriptive, but they generally codify what is good practice and are phrased as suggestions (ie 'should be...') rather than as mandatory (ie 'must be...') requirements. For example there are six volumes to BS8541 which covers library objects (eg Revit families). I'd be stunned if anyone other than myself in our practice was even aware of these! Other standards define line styles and symbols to be used for key elements, and again I'd doubt that there is any awareness of these, let alone actual conscious compliance - but if I were to pick any drawing and compare it to the standards, I'd be prepared to bet that they were close enough!

    BS1192/ISO 19650 are not without flaws, but they are standards that create a more or less level playing field that everyone can work with without too much pain.
    robp likes this.

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