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Thread: Architect Refuses to Type Mark All Plumbing Fixtures

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    Member koolair's Avatar
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    Architect Refuses to Type Mark All Plumbing Fixtures

    I work for contractors. For some reason cited as "obvious" the architect refuses to type mark all their plumbing fixtures saying the designations are driven by the mechanical engineer. However, mechanical doesn't set the location of the sinks and toilets. The architect does. They also select the sink types to meet spec (it's a hospital with PSOS). When I provide my client (the mechanical contractor) a bare drawing set to design the plumbing, they want the sinks etc all tagged so they know how far to offset the sleeves. To make that happen, on previous jobs I got the architect to add a type mark. Then I do a "tag all" and everyones happy. I dont get why this architect refused. Any idea? This job has two consultants routinely refusing to make adjustments to allow people down the line to carry out their work in an efficient manner. We're even on BIM360. I don't get it. It's almost 2020 and people are refusing to do the things neccessary to allow efficient workflow. I also take inventory of all fixtures with counts. More than half of their fixtures have the proper type marks. Why balk now? I just don't get it. Can any of you architectural guys provide insight?

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    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolair View Post
    I work for contractors. For some reason cited as "obvious" the architect refuses to type mark all their plumbing fixtures saying the designations are driven by the mechanical engineer. However, mechanical doesn't set the location of the sinks and toilets. The architect does. They also select the sink types to meet spec (it's a hospital with PSOS). When I provide my client (the mechanical contractor) a bare drawing set to design the plumbing, they want the sinks etc all tagged so they know how far to offset the sleeves. To make that happen, on previous jobs I got the architect to add a type mark. Then I do a "tag all" and everyones happy. I dont get why this architect refused. Any idea? This job has two consultants routinely refusing to make adjustments to allow people down the line to carry out their work in an efficient manner. We're even on BIM360. I don't get it. It's almost 2020 and people are refusing to do the things neccessary to allow efficient workflow. I also take inventory of all fixtures with counts. More than half of their fixtures have the proper type marks. Why balk now? I just don't get it. Can any of you architectural guys provide insight?

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    The Plumbing Engineer doesn't have them type tagged in their model?

    It's not always common for architects to type mark and tag all the plumbing fixtures. Varies by office and project team, since it's an overlapping responsibility item with plumbing engineers.

    Not saying I would say I wouldn't do it, but it wouldn't surprise me if an architect wouldn't. It isn't part.of their scope of work, aside from locating the fixtures. Plumbing Engineer typically differentiates the different types. If they don't have it done that way, it's extra coordination work to go do it.

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    Member koolair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    The Plumbing Engineer doesn't have them type tagged in their model?

    It's not always common for architects to type mark and tag all the plumbing fixtures. Varies by office and project team, since it's an overlapping responsibility item with plumbing engineers.

    Not saying I would say I wouldn't do it, but it wouldn't surprise me if an architect wouldn't. It isn't part.of their scope of work, aside from locating the fixtures. Plumbing Engineer typically differentiates the different types. If they don't have it done that way, it's extra coordination work to go do it.

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    The thing is, the point of contact was adamant that they don't type mark the fixtures, even though the vast majority of the fixtures are already type marked correctly. I pulled a fixture schedule sorted by type proving this. One of her equal ranking colleagues even agreed to type mark the rest until this other lady intercepted. Her objection doesn't jive with the facts.

    The engineer has them copy monitored but I typically don't follow them because the architect drives fixture type and details to meet spec. Plus the engineer usually has all these wacky workflows with unusual looking fixture geometry that require complex workset management. They sometimes have strange system classification settings that make it hard to control trade specific visibility. I usually prefer only following the architect and structure for sleeving because they always have the cleanest models and worksets. They also drive space considerations between hygene sinks and nearby eye washes. These things determine my sleeve locations, and depending on where they land on the slab/drop panel - sleeve length. These things determine how I pick up drainage on the floor below. It's all interconnected and driven by the big boss. The engineer's model is only reliable for general routing, sizing, start and end points. If we followed the engineer for fixture locations, my last project would have been a dog's breakfast.

    ETA: I'm going to check out the engineer's model just to square up for Monday.
    Last edited by koolair; April 13th, 2019 at 04:04 AM.

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    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    Believe me: I get how it works. I build models for GC's to use with subs all the time.

    The thing is: those are all reasons you LIKE using the architects model for that workflow. That doesn't mean they are obligated to do more work to make.it easier for you.

    Especially considering it is rarely in the architects contract that the sink they model even me the right size and dimensions, in terms of where the drains and supply pipes are. I think it should be accurate, of course. But it doesn't mean it is, or even that it's required of them.

    Clearances and spacing are typically handled center to center along the counter, or just with a predefined cearance space. So an architect using a sink they got from Kohler, and writing in a manufactured and model number of a completely different brand, isn't uncommon at all.

    All that to say: sure. Someone on the team might be willing to do it. And I'm sure you LIKE using their model. But none of that answers the question: were they asked to do it in their contract?

    Btw, I think I said.if earlier: I would obviously do it, if I were them. But I'm not them, and they aren't WRONG just because we don't agree with them, or because we don't like it.

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    Member koolair's Avatar
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    Damn it now I'm all wound up. Let me share this other issue.

    Even the structural engineer refused to change his reference level on the underground footings. My footing tag was giving wrong top of footing figures because it worked in some areas where the modeler did it correctly, but not in many other areas where they had level 1 reference levels. They refused to change that and advised me not to annotate and rely on their content. They said it was "dangerous". This is just silly. Why use revit if all you're doing is using it as a glorified version of autocad? You spent all this time training people to draw circles squares and triangles the hard way. I ended up making a tag featuring calculated values and carefully tagging their footings.

    I've never had a project where everyone was terrified that someone else will rely on their work. My last one was a dream. The architect actually listened to me and type marked their fixtures, their BIM manager respected my input and I reciprocated during ceiling coordination, even though traditionally the architect has to figure out access doors/tiles vs devices, lighting, and diffuser layouts. It all paid off in spades.

    I get the feeling there is no hard and fast rule. This will be more about salesmanship than anything.

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    Member koolair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    ...

    All that to say: sure. Someone on the team might be willing to do it. And I'm sure you LIKE using their model. But none of that answers the question: were they asked to do it in their contract?

    Btw, I think I said.if earlier: I would obviously do it, if I were them. But I'm not them, and they aren't WRONG just because we don't agree with them, or because we don't like it.

    ...
    The thing about legalities is, once you provide a certain level of detail and it's a trend, that becomes the ammended requirement. I'm not a lawyer but I did study law for professional engineers and this was the general rule of law construction. I'll have to revisit that.

    Anyhow, tagging most of their fixtures and refusing to polish up the rest is to me, ridiculous, illogical. These are type marks. Not actual marks.

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    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    Well, your mind is made up. Regardless of what's happening elsewhere in the industry.

    The law isn't even ambiguous. In most cases the model is in no way a contract documents, and you have no right of reliance in it. That's well established.

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    Member koolair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    ...

    Clearances and spacing are typically handled center to center along the counter, or just with a predefined cearance space. So an architect using a sink they got from Kohler, and writing in a manufactured and model number of a completely different brand, isn't uncommon at all.

    ...
    I'd actually be ok with that provided the geometry is roughly the same. I only need that Kohler sink you're using to have the same type mark as the engineer so that I can "pre-tag-all" plan all my prefabs and sleeves on my own 1:50 drawings comprised of stacked floor plans, structual plans and room layout on floor below in half tone, point out where my sleeve offset needs more space, where I need a thicker wall, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    Well, your mind is made up. Regardless of what's happening elsewhere in the industry.

    The law isn't even ambiguous. In most cases the model is in no way a contract documents, and you have no right of reliance in it. That's well established.

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    I'll ckeck this out tomorrow. The architect tags the vast majority of fixtures including water dispensers and other plumbing devices on the pdf drawings. They come from the type mark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by koolair View Post
    The thing about legalities is, once you provide a certain level of detail and it's a trend, that becomes the ammended requirement. I'm not a lawyer but I did study law for professional engineers and this was the general rule of law construction. I'll have to revisit that.

    Anyhow, tagging most of their fixtures and refusing to polish up the rest is to me, ridiculous, illogical. These are type marks. Not actual marks.

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    You can make as many assumptions as you want about this A/E team. Some of your thoughts might be correct.

    But unless you have seen the contracts that they are working under, you don't have any way to decide who's not doing it right.

    Is the MEP working direct for the Architect or the Owner? That's the first question. Who's obligated to make the plumbing fixture selections? Architect? Engineer? Owner? Facilities / Property Manager? Interior Designer? Nobody?

    Maybe the A/E Contracts are full of holes and the Owner opted from some kind of narrow scope and now everyone's acting accordingly.

    Or maybe the are just being difficult. The world's full of people who think their S**T doesn't stink, its true.
    Last edited by bt.comm; April 16th, 2019 at 12:40 AM.
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