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Thread: Architect Refuses to Type Mark All Plumbing Fixtures

  1.    #11
    Member PatrickGSR94's Avatar
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    We don't tag our plumbing fixtures in architectural drawings, either. We show where they go, and MP&E consultant puts them in their model and lists them in their schedule. I think they use type tags on theirs, but I haven't looked close enough. If someone asked me to tag all mine, I would also say no, because that's not what we do, and I don't want anyone burning a bunch of time setting up tag numbers for all the various families on a job.
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  2.    #12
    jmk
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    We don't tag our plumbing fixtures either. The model is generally not a contract document. I probably would consider making changes if the contractor team asked, explained their reasoning and I felt I could do so: without a lot of effort (since it isn't part of our contract), it would improve our model coordination, and my teams workload is such that we have time to make the change. We have generic plumbing fixture families that we use, and the engineers may have different types indicating different criteria that don't change how the family looks architecturally, so it would require duplicating types.

    I want accurate models from consultants and to make ours accurate too, but its a cost benefit exercise, especially when the model isn't a contract document.
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  3.    #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmk View Post
    We don't tag our plumbing fixtures either. The model is generally not a contract document. I probably would consider making changes if the contractor team asked, explained their reasoning and I felt I could do so: without a lot of effort (since it isn't part of our contract), it would improve our model coordination, and my teams workload is such that we have time to make the change. We have generic plumbing fixture families that we use, and the engineers may have different types indicating different criteria that don't change how the family looks architecturally, so it would require duplicating types.

    I want accurate models from consultants and to make ours accurate too, but its a cost benefit exercise, especially when the model isn't a contract document.
    If the model isnt a contract document, then no worries to the architect about type marking them right? Especially if 75% of them are *already* type marked.

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  4.    #14
    jmk
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolair View Post
    If the model isnt a contract document, then no worries to the architect about type marking them right? Especially if 75% of them are *already* type marked.
    I think that everyone on this forum has (or will if they work with others) have had a consultant, architect or contractor do something extremely frustrating in a model they need to use. There are both reasonable and unreasonable reasons for not helping a member of the design/construction team out, and we don't know enough to say what situations might be at play. I probably would be unwilling duplicate sink types (especially after the drawings are done) just because a couple instances get a different mixing valve, but I might be willing to put the type mark information in the comment field. However, it doesn't matter what I'd be willing to do, because it doesn't change your situation. At a certain point you have to pick your battles and decide what your work-around could be. It probably won't be as smart or data-driven, but it will get a result to work with. 75% of the data is better than 0%.

    Keep having the conversation of what you need with the contractors you work with, ask them to have it with the general contractors, the contractors to have it with the design team and owners. Change in the need for models and the requirements for their accuracy will happen, but it needs to happen when contracts are drawn up and BIM execution plans created.

    I've had several models where I would happily trade you a correctly located but un-type marked fixture for floating rooftop units!
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    We don't usually tag the sanitaryware/plumbing fixtures that we, as architects, have specified either, but would not refuse to do so if it were requested. We do schedule them, though and would expect to provide the relevant COBie data attached to the families when working to BIM Stage 2 (Level 2 for older projects) and as required by the data drops.

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    Member d.stairmand's Avatar
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    I just don't get it guys - You don't tag your Fixtures in the Arch Drawings?
    So you tag your Door's so people know what number & type they are?
    So you tag your Wall's so people know what type they are?
    .....Otherwise they are just lines on a Sheet?
    And then you don't tag your Fixtures so no-one knows what they are?
    Is that a WC? or is that a Urinal? or is that a Bidet? or is that a Basin?
    The Arch firm I work for tags everything they Model & Document - how else is that chap building it meant to know what it is?

    my 2c worth...hopefully not offending anyone & sorry if a have

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    Quote Originally Posted by d.stairmand View Post
    I just don't get it guys - You don't tag your Fixtures in the Arch Drawings?
    So you tag your Door's so people know what number & type they are?
    So you tag your Wall's so people know what type they are?
    .....Otherwise they are just lines on a Sheet?
    And then you don't tag your Fixtures so no-one knows what they are?
    Is that a WC? or is that a Urinal? or is that a Bidet? or is that a Basin?
    The Arch firm I work for tags everything they Model & Document - how else is that chap building it meant to know what it is?

    my 2c worth...hopefully not offending anyone & sorry if a have
    Well, tags are not the only way to communicate information of course. In our case, annotation with a reference back to the relevant specification clause, plus the schedule provide all of the necessary information.

  8.    #18
    Member PatrickGSR94's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d.stairmand View Post
    I just don't get it guys - You don't tag your Fixtures in the Arch Drawings?
    So you tag your Door's so people know what number & type they are?
    So you tag your Wall's so people know what type they are?
    .....Otherwise they are just lines on a Sheet?
    And then you don't tag your Fixtures so no-one knows what they are?
    Is that a WC? or is that a Urinal? or is that a Bidet? or is that a Basin?
    The Arch firm I work for tags everything they Model & Document - how else is that chap building it meant to know what it is?

    my 2c worth...hopefully not offending anyone & sorry if a have
    We're an architecture firm, not plumbing engineers. We specify doors and windows and therefore tag them. We do not (typically) specify the plumbing fixtures. They have their own schedule and tags for their fixtures.

  9.    #19
    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolair View Post
    If the model isnt a contract document, then no worries to the architect about type marking them right? Especially if 75% of them are *already* type marked.

    Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk
    I see. Question: Have you offered to compensate them for their time, to go back through ahd check all the values, if they were to do it? Or pay them for the time to do it at all?

    Its fascinating to me that you are *downstream* (working for the Contractor, which i also do a lot of the time) and you have no qualms about *just demanding* that the folks upstream invest more of their time and resources to do something that is potentially not in their contract, JUST because it makes your life a little easier.

    No offense meant, but this is precisely WHY some design teams dont want to share *models* with the Contractor at all.

    BTW, it isnt smart (at all) to be cherry picking counts from design teams models, without exacting your due diligence to check the model (and make corrections as needed) in your own copy of the model... Lest you end up with counts that are wrong, one day, and then try to blame the Design Team because of their *model.* I dont remember where you are located, but you would get laughed out of the conference room if you tried that here.

  10.    #20
    Forum Addict elton williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d.stairmand View Post
    I just don't get it guys - You don't tag your Fixtures in the Arch Drawings?
    So you tag your Door's so people know what number & type they are?
    So you tag your Wall's so people know what type they are?
    .....Otherwise they are just lines on a Sheet?
    And then you don't tag your Fixtures so no-one knows what they are?
    Is that a WC? or is that a Urinal? or is that a Bidet? or is that a Basin?
    The Arch firm I work for tags everything they Model & Document - how else is that chap building it meant to know what it is?

    my 2c worth...hopefully not offending anyone & sorry if a have
    Quote Originally Posted by john.warburton View Post
    Well, tags are not the only way to communicate information of course. In our case, annotation with a reference back to the relevant specification clause, plus the schedule provide all of the necessary information.
    We tag our plumbing fixtures but it's just generic nomenclature (eg. SK-01 for sink type 1) and will refer to the actual product in an external schedule - yeah external schedules are lame but that's what it is right now. The ass-covering comes from the specifications. How things are connected is up to the Engineers/ contractors.
    Having said that, if design consultants ask for things to be done a certain way we are happy to work together with them, as long as it's discussed and agreed upon as early as possible. Last minute "do all this work" dumps won't fly.
    BIM plans and contracts are of course necessary, however communication and coordination is what oils the engine.

    Edit - we only tag fixtures in typical room layouts (like we would for tile finishes), and it won't be every item down to taps and bottle traps, just the main obvious ones -sink, wc etc.
    Last edited by elton williams; April 16th, 2019 at 08:47 PM.
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