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Thread: Looking for a Term and an Example

  1. #11
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    I think at LOD 300 it's more a matter of if it should be modeled.

  2. #12
    Forum Addict GMcDowellJr's Avatar
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    See what I mean?
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  3. #13
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    Not really. A millwork door probably would, IMVHO, is at a fabrication level. You're minimum LOD is most likely 400.

  4. #14
    Forum Addict GMcDowellJr's Avatar
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    Does the cabinet have a door? Then should it be modeled "accurately" or "generically" at LOD 300? If you're not modeling it at all perhaps the cabinet is LOD 200 but the door is LOD 100.

    LOD 100 - Concept Design
    The building 3D model is developed to represent the information on basic level. Thereby, only conceptual model creation is possible in this stage. Parameters like area, height, volume, location and orientation are defined

    LOD 200 - Schematic Design
    General model where elements are modeled with approximate quantities, size, shape, location and orientation. We can also attach non- geometric information to the model elements


    LOD 300 - Detailed Design
    Accurate modeling and shop drawings where elements are defined with specific assemblies, precise quantity, size, shape, location and orientation. Here too we can attach non- geometric information to the model elements

    How far down does the rabbit hole go Alice?

  5. #15
    Forum Addict Robin Deurloo's Avatar
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    But it also tells you what data is added to that door. So, what material, is it a right or a left door.

    Even though a lot of the time you get forced into the LOD thing, I really would like to discuss upfront what it is somebody actually needs in every stage of the project. Meaning that a lot of info is put into a model that nobody ever uses and data is missing that somebody would really liked to have had. Sure in a perfect BIM world all the data should be in the model, but for me at least I have not come across one of those perfect projects yet and most of the time the one that is supposed to benefit the most of this all, the contractor, is at a loss of what to even do with the 3D model, let alone getting info out of it. I know there are loads of project that do have a contractor that knows his BIM, but for some reason I have not really come across one of them for a project.

    So to get back to the door, even if LOD 400 says that all the hinges should be modelled (or at least there should be data added to that door telling me it has 3 hinges) if nobody is going to use that info, why should it be added to the model?

    So, I think that is indeed a BIM Execution Plan. Sit with the different parties involved and talk about what it is everybody needs. You can of course use the LOD as a guideline or have a template document for this but it should in the end be a document you make with all the parties involved and with the people that actually know what they are talking about instead of somebody that heard the term LOD once.
    Last edited by Robin Deurloo; January 8th, 2019 at 10:56 PM.
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  6. #16
    Forum Addict Robin Deurloo's Avatar
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    And I have come across a project management company, where a guy with a expansive suit and shiny Italian shoes came in with a 50 page document telling everybody how to work and there was no discussion possible. And in the end one of his colleagues, that was actually the one doing the project, wanted dwg and pdf of the drawings and had no clue how to even open a rvt or ifc file.

  7. #17
    Mr. Revit OpEd
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMcDowellJr
    ...How far down does the rabbit hole go Alice?...
    All the way...all the way
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  8. #18
    Mr. Revit OpEd
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    A gross oversimplification...design phases are billing timestamps. When we get this far along we want some money. After all what firm can afford go long enough to finish the entire design to turn over for construction without collecting money to pay their people and keep the lights on?

    Seems to me that LOD is a client's expression of "how do I know you're done?", "what can I trust" and "how do I decide I can pay you?" It's also a way for the designer to express, "I don't know enough about this thing yet but it has to be something like this". A multitude of things are never evaluated in this way by a client, it happens between people on the design team. The client isn't deciding on the size of a pour stop, or picking the mastic. Often a client is most worried about "is that what it will look like", "how done are we?", "how fast" and "how much"?

    Then again for a design team many elements can/do start at a higher LOD because they aren't a mystery. A steel beam at LOD 400 during schematic design doesn't automatically mean fabricate it. Many models at CD delivery don't have steel that includes their connections or flange/web reinforcing etc. It's all described broadly with details. A door can be pretty detailed right at the outset even if we haven't decided on material/finish yet. In the US there is seldom any hardware but elsewhere it is more commonplace.

    I used to hear in the old days before Revit that CAD drawings looked too finished, gave the client a false sense of completeness. Usually right part of the argument for sketchy lines and hand lettered fonts. Now that argument can be made for you put too much detail in that object too early, we thought it was "done" so we ordered it?
    Last edited by Steve_Stafford; January 8th, 2019 at 11:31 PM.

  9. #19
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    interesting conversation. In my experience (limited to curtain wall modeling and detailing) when I would get a BEP requiring a certain LOD 90% of the time I would find that those imposing the requirement had no idea of what LOD 200 or LOD 300 or whatever was. I have for years kept a sample small curtain wall model that I would submit early on and say "you require LOD 300 and this is my interpretation of LOD 300". This sample was Never rejected and it was probably max LOD 200. Just a simple Revit curtain wall with no intelligence. Then in actual practice my models contain all curtain wall components of course, but also anchor clips, thru bolts, slab edge embeds, copings, flashings, corner brake shapes, etc etc the end result being more like, probably, LOD 400. All modeled components included enough information to extract quantity and costing takeoffs along with part numbers or any other information required to order and fabricate the end product. Just my small niche $0.02USD

  10. #20
    Forum Addict GMcDowellJr's Avatar
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    Do you show them an LOD 200 but give them an LOD 400? The definition of under promise, over deliver.


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