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Thread: Another brick (or idea) in the wall

  1.    #1
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    Another brick (or idea) in the wall

    Ways to do wall on Revit:

    1. Whole wall is one wall element. We want structure to be separate and don't want that from many other reasons.


    2. Separate structural wall and up to two architectural wall elements if we want to show and count plaster on interior side. We used this lately.


    3. New idea for us. Whole wall consisting of one architectural wall element of whole thickness and one structural wall element embedded inside. Elements are joined together. See the attachment.




    I have many curious questions about this. Did you try it? How it generally works? I know that it will work properly with doors and windows.
    Only problem that I can't get rid of is warning - "Highlighted walls overlap. One of them may be ignored when Revit finds room boundaries. Use Cut Geometry to embed one wall within the other.". Because of that I plan to set architectural wall as room bounding and structural as not.

    If it will work properly I will also apply this method to floors.

    What do you think, dear Community?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Another brick (or idea) in the wall-wall.png  
    Last edited by Kaducki; July 14th, 2017 at 01:06 PM.

  2.    #2
    Senior Member Robin Deurloo's Avatar
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    Looks like trouble in the end to me. I see people forgetting to set the proper height of the embedded wall, the overlapped walls will get pretty annoying eventually, what does this do when exporting to ifc? Splitting walls up will be more accurate when doing counts on m2 and m3. Looks like more work to me then doing it the right way.

    What are your many reasons that you want your wall to be as 1 wall and not split them up?

  3.    #3
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    Yes this is the major problem.
    There are several reasons why "compound" walls don't work extremely well.
    The main reason being counting volumes and quantities.

    Just as an example (in general)
    The "brute" structural elements go from load bearing element to load bearing element.
    Finishes however, are stratified - so for example insulation on the exterior face may cover the entire face from level 0 to level 1.
    The interior insulation and finishes will likely go from finished level, to ceiling - interior insulation beyond this point is not common and in addition costly throughout the entirity of a building.

    So if you use a "compound" wall with multiple layers, already your finishes are incorrect, and your insulation is incorrect. This will give you quite a large error in quantity, if you imagine between 600 and 800 mm of "plenum" space (or mechanical void space) that does not require a finish, paint, or insulation in the interior of the wall, this is a significant quantity throughout your building.
    In addition, on top of our slab, we have maybe some grout, and some tiles giving me say 15 cm of difference between finished level, and "brute" level. Meaning my wall finish and insulation stops at the top level of the grout - and then my tiles on my floor finish at the interior "finish" face of the wall. Again, big impacts on quantities (and prices and volumes)

    That is one reason, and in my opinion a very significant one. We as modellers, should be trying to "virtually" construct the building and therefore placing elements that accurately represent the finished reality. Of course, for the early phases of the project, maybe this is acceptable, and we accept an error as we are just looking for rough volumes, and either factor in a margin of error on each level based on a percentage of mechanical space height vs level ratio.


    Another reason is collaboration.
    If we are working with An architect and Structural engineer in the one model, then it becomes annoying, and difficult to seperate compound walls for documentation and also to manage the coneections and then in addition - to manage the analytical nodes.

    In my opinion, this is a major reason to seperate your walls (join geometry will allow openings to pass through multiple layers of "seperate" walls) so managing openings is relatively simple.

    Now when I say seperate the walls, I mean you can still use "compound" walls, but in the case mentioned above I may have a compound wall for the exterior finish+insulation + void. Then the "brute" structure and then another compound element for the interior insulation+finish. This allows me to manage the layers but I agree at some point managing all of that becomes tedious, so the trick is finding the balance.

  4.    #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin Deurloo View Post
    What are your many reasons that you want your wall to be as 1 wall and not split them up?
    I want to isolate only structural elements quickly and constructor to work on separate workset. Thanks to that, we don't get in each others' way. And also, joining corners in very complicated compound walls is tedious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karalon10 View Post
    Now when I say seperate the walls, I mean you can still use "compound" walls, but in the case mentioned above I may have a compound wall for the exterior finish+insulation + void. Then the "brute" structure and then another compound element for the interior insulation+finish. This allows me to manage the layers but I agree at some point managing all of that becomes tedious, so the trick is finding the balance.
    I want also to separate walls, but instead three elements, I want two - brute structure and the rest. Why?
    Imagine wall consisting of:
    1. Exterior finish, insulation, void.
    2. Brute structure.
    3. Only plaster.

    I don't want to draw plaster as separate element, it's not worth it. Unfortunately I need it to calculate areas. And I still want structural wall as separate element. Because of that I propose the third way from the first post.
    The filosophy behind this is like with structural and architectural columns - within another. If I want less insulation on the structural column, I just change the level of architectural column.

  5.    #5
    Senior Member PijPiwo's Avatar
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    Why not linking these two?

  6.    #6
    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    The third idea is going to work terribly. Take the advice being given to you already in the thread. Model them as separate layers. You are saying it is *not worth it,* but thats because you are assuming your way is going to work and be faster. Its going to do neither. It will work for a little while, until the stacking errors start to demolish performance. AND its still going to be way more fighting with wall joins because of the errors.

    Model them separately and move on.
    cganiere likes this.

  7.    #7
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    What we need is horizontally "compound" walls where 2 or 3 wall types can be drawn at the same time, coincident with each other, and then modified separately down the line. Structural and finish wall types, with each of their various layers, drawn as normal based on finished face interior/exterior, core center/exterior (of the structural wall). Then each individual wall could be selected (tab selected?) and stretched out, made taller or shorter or otherwise modified as needed.

    Either that or there needs to be a way to make each individual layer of a wall editable. That would help greatly with roofs, too, where you might have sheathing and finishes that extend past the structural core layer.

    That would be a huge help, I think.
    Last edited by PatrickGSR94; July 17th, 2017 at 09:23 PM.

  8.    #8
    Senior Member Robin Deurloo's Avatar
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    I used to do the structural wall and the rest separately until I came across all sorts of issues (not errors, just issues in workflow) and now I model each layer of the wall separately. Sure it 'sounds' like a lot of work, but in the end you have much more control over each piece of the wall and schedules are much more accurate.

    And what if you have tiles too, stuck to the plaster, is that also part of the total wall, or do you model those separately? What if they are not all the way up to the top of the wall, but just the first 1200mm?

    To quote a pretty smart guy I know: "Model them separately and move on."
    Twiceroadsfool and cganiere like this.

  9.    #9
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    Separate walls for every single layer sounds like a modeling/coordination nightmare to me.

  10.    #10
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    If you model the layers separately, how do you tag the wall types?

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