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Thread: Beam behavior w Pick Line option

  1. #1
    Moderator gaby424's Avatar
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    Beam behavior w Pick Line option

    Se attached picture. The same text is inside it.

    We have a structural beam that has the geometry fixed as length centered between the it`s
    own pick points (the points are defined by the 2 reference planes that have the default Length parameter attached
    inside the family editor).

    If we place this kind of beam by using pick line it behaves ok only if there is not a beam on the next modeline that is in chain
    with the first model line (the model lines are the targhet for the pick line option).

    If we make a simmilar thing using some helper columns the behavior is normal. But I don`t want to build columns for that
    in may project. We have lot of beams to place.

    The only solution I found was to make a void in family that cuts the possible extended portion, but this is not ok because
    after placing 2 beams we`ve got the annoyng warning messege about “can`t join.... bla bla”. So you press ok on the messege
    but the beam comand is over then, so you have start again beam/pick line clicks...bam... the message.

    The question: What can I do in the beam family to make it pass the pick line test?

    p.s. also tried to modifiy the parameter “material for model behavior” in the family...but no succes.. (this the parameter
    name in 2013). Also a line based generic family don`t work with pick line in 3d...only in a work plane. Which is not what I need.
    ps.2. I can do it with 2 points adaptive families but i don`t have pick line option..so I need 2 cliks Also it will not have an analitical model because I can`t change it to beam category.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beam behavior w Pick Line option-beam.jpg  
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by gaby424; September 7th, 2012 at 01:22 PM.

  2. #2
    Revit Guru marcello's Avatar
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    Don't let Revit do the thinking for you

    The developers programmed Structural beam families to "Auto Join" to adjacent beams when the "pick" command is used.
    This is what is happening in your particular case but it is not how you want your workflow I assume...its the developers workflow.... so dont let Revit do the thinking for you.
    the beam wants to auto join.... let it!!!!!
    then add more beams and delete the autojoins.
    see attached video that shows this method...
    let me know if this helps.
    Marcello


  3. #3
    Moderator gaby424's Avatar
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    Wonderfull idea
    Don`t know why my real beam doesn`t behave the same (it still joins after the trick) but I supposebecause it is upgraded from 2012. It is a more complex beam but I`ll try to remake it starting from a simple extrusion as the sample model here was, and I will try to add incrementaly more complexity to see if it can still handle this nice trick I`ll come back if i discover the thing that stops the trick working

    Thx marcelo

    ps. the beam was made by my engineer. It can be made smarter (using profiles in some nonparametrical pieces..) That`t why, I will remake it to see if I can make use of this trick
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beam behavior w Pick Line option-beam.jpg  
    Attached Files Attached Files

  4. #4
    Revit Guru marcello's Avatar
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    Do Not change the beam family geometry...change the beam family's behavior.....

    Quote Originally Posted by gaby424 View Post
    Wonderfull idea
    Don`t know why my real beam doesn`t behave the same (it still joins after the trick) but I supposebecause it is upgraded from 2012. It is a more complex beam but I`ll try to remake it starting from a simple extrusion as the sample model here was, and I will try to add incrementaly more complexity to see if it can still handle this nice trick I`ll come back if i discover the thing that stops the trick working

    Thx marcelo

    ps. the beam was made by my engineer. It can be made smarter (using profiles in some nonparametrical pieces..) That`t why, I will remake it to see if I can make use of this trick
    The method I showed above is still valid as far as I am able to tell.....
    DO NOT rebuild the Family....Just change the behavior of the Beam family....

    the complex beam family that was attached to your response was behaving like a "concrete" beam and the auto join is very STRONG.
    See the attached video, try if for yourself.
    Any remaining issues?

  5. #5
    Moderator gaby424's Avatar
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    On the simple beam i`ve made tests with all possible values for that behavior paremeter and now, after your trick, I totaly forgot to check to see if the complex beam has the same value there, as the simple beam has lol.

    Very weird moving of beams in the process of this trick. They become excentric relative to line length, then centered again Fortunatelly it works. Thx a million
    Last edited by gaby424; September 11th, 2012 at 08:44 PM.

  6. #6
    Autodesk TheViking's Avatar
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    Attach the beam geometry to different reference planes. Revit will move the known reference planes to make the join. If your joining to something Revit doesn't know about it should not move.

  7. #7
    Moderator gaby424's Avatar
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    The geometry(in the family) in the beam examples is attached to custom made reference planes.... It` is only centered on the left-right ref plane. Maybe I don`t understand

    Or you are talking about different workplanes in the project enviroment?

    In my real situation I use for the pick line feature some lines generated from a big adaptive bridge scheleton family that I`ve made for some engineers. Everything is based by parmeters so I don`t have do draft things to make this scheleton. That`s why, I`ve tried before the pick line action to swich the next beam to a different workplane but nothing new
    Maybe you can open one of the family(the basic one maybe) to edit it to understand the difference....

    Attached, an ugly picture because my laptop doesn`t want to work with antialiasing on.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beam behavior w Pick Line option-project2.png  
    Last edited by gaby424; September 17th, 2012 at 05:03 PM.

  8. #8
    Autodesk TheViking's Avatar
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    Trying to model a bridge. I love it. In my previous before Autodesk I was a bridge designer. I worked on all kinds of bridges from suspension to stringer bridges. It the geometry that make bridges great.

    So why are you trying to not have the beam extend to the ends of your layout lines? Couldn't you let the beams extend and then move them back using the start/end extension properties?

    Other questions: what are your workflows for handling change to the skeleton? You say the adaptive family is driven manually. Could you give some details? Has this been successful or is it still an experiment? How is the deck modeled?

    Sorry for all the questions but I'm curious at a personal level. Thanks.

  9. #9
    Moderator gaby424's Avatar
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    Hello, Eric

    Nice to find out you used to work with bridges. For me is just a temporary consultancy job outside my country. I`m an architect, but now that the client want to make bridges, I had to understand the algorithm they have, so I can emulate it in Revit... Luky that I like to play with formulas

    Unfortunatelly, the bridges are not ment to be beautifull (as geometry). They need to be cheap and functional bridges. They have a standard set of prefabricated elements that need to stay linked using some already developed rules, that have been wroted and tested and used since 20-30 years ago. They only use a big set of prefabricated elements, so there is no room for creativity.
    They have straight bridges, circular bridges, and clothoid(spiral like) bridges.


    The family I`ve made is adaptive because I used divide and repet tool for spreading the T beams over the width of the bridge. Then, because the bridge has transversal slopes, the beams receve the same slope so the suports of the beams are calculated automaticly by some formuas in terms of position and custom height for every beam. Also every beam sckeleton automaticly adapt to the slope with a rotation angle using formulas and reporting parameters about every beam position(position that the divide and repeat tool genereates).

    The skeleton just generates pick lines for every constructing element. Then, the constructing elements are made using adaptive components or beam or columns that snaps to that lines, receiving their position in 3d space.

    The skeleton can have any number of spans. The adaptive property is need it, because every span skeleton has one adaptive point (at sea level) so I can concatenate more spans together in the parent family. When one of the spans extends, the other are moved automaticly.

    Now the parent family is good for 1 to 6 spans just because they need o maximum of 6 spans.
    The family has parameters that can be filled using the info they already have at the begining of the project. Like:
    -specific transversal section widths,
    -heights measured from the sea level for every end of the span
    -number of T breams used they could cover the bridge width
    -property of the beams used (length, height, width). so the beam suports pick lines can be generated exactly
    -transversal slopes of the bridge
    -etc.

    The ideea is to fill all the user input parameters at the begining of the project directly in the project using as guiding things some transversal and longitudinal linked sections of the site (dwg exported from civil), so you can find an optimum skeleton solution for your bridge that cover the space you need to fill between the 2 ends of the road.

    After you decide what is the best solution, at the skeleton level, you start to put the prefabricated elements on this skeleton with 3d snap or pick line tool depends on how the construction elements have been created.

    The deck is made using a roof applied to a surface mass. The mass is an inplace mass, created using some spline through points(the points also belongs to the scheleton). In reality, their deck is concrete cast in place, like a sloped slab that fills all the gaps between the superior part from the T prefabricated beams.

    The fun part with this project, is that 80% of the families are adaptive components (even the beams that started this thread, have been converted to adaptive components).

    The straight bridge concept is functional for the biding phase of the project and for 1:50 1:100 1:200 1:400 views (concrete volumes, number of prefabricated elements....the rebar part in this phase is a calculated value). For rebar detailing they will use ASD until revit will be improved in this field.

    Now, I`me in the process to develop the circular and clothoid skeleton. The circular is doable (made some tests in the past). The clothoid will be a real challange .


    p.s. The skeleton family has 1.2mb
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beam behavior w Pick Line option-bridge-layout.png  
    Last edited by gaby424; September 24th, 2012 at 02:10 PM.

  10. #10
    Autodesk TheViking's Avatar
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    Thanks for the information on your workflow. It is very informative and helpful. I have passed it on to others that will also find it interesting. Thanks for sharing and please feel free to ping me at any time.

    Erik

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