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Thread: Rough opening for storefront and curtain wall

  1.    #11
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    Can we custom system mullion profile?

  2.    #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMcDowellJr View Post
    Mine goes a step further showing the sealants as half ellipses that you can push into the frame should you desire.

    Kinda nutty... probably not worth it.


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    I wouldnt say its *not worth it,* just that (for me personally) i wouldnt do it in the Mullion Profile itself. Since any parametric change that has to happen in the Detail Component means another Type of Profile (hence another type of Mullion), id rather need a type of mullion for each Shim Space Size, but then let the teams drop the caulk/sealant/backer rod in, in the live detail, as a detail component. Eliminates a bunch of extra Mullion and Profile types, just to achieve that result.

    But its awesome that you have them built that way!

  3.    #13
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    I use a window which is a void in the wall and then place a curtain wall in it as a group.

    The window(void) contains the extra's needed to place a real window
    Last edited by mjajansen; February 1st, 2019 at 03:12 PM.

  4.    #14
    Forum Addict GMcDowellJr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    I’d rather need a type of mullion for each Shim Space Size, but then let the teams drop the caulk/sealant/backer rod in, in the live detail, as a detail component. Eliminates a bunch of extra Mullion and Profile types, just to achieve that result.
    If I’m reading you right, that you might use a separate million for the sealant, then that’s what I was thinking I might transition to. Right now the detail component for the profile and sealant is parameters enough to handle the changes but it does mean a new Profile and Mullion Type.

    I’m thinking about playing with a standard aluminum extrusion curtain wall as a panel inside another that has a sealant profile as the million. That would also allow me to change the color of the sealant... something my designers obsess over. Just need to figure out how to ensure you’re editing the correct curtain wall when adding grids. I think Dave uses filters...


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    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    No, my Shim Space is part of the mullion, its not a separate mullion. the image i posted above has 6 mullions in it. But mine includes the WIDTH of the Shim space, and doesnt get in to all the parametrics of where the sealant detail component, or potential backer rod and such, go. Thats what i meant: Parameters for all of THAT would mean even MORE types of profiles and mullions, which im not interested in.

  6.    #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    This. Except my Profile lines are also split at that reference plane, which create an edge you can Dimension to, should you want to. The Detail Component even has a masking region that protrudes proud of the surace of the wall, to hide the Mullions modeled edge.
    I didn't realize how helpful that split would be till now, thank you.

    I haven't fully committed to the nested detail components yet. A basic profile is doing a good enough job, but I can see the split and a few masking regions would help at the detail level. Dang. This never ends.

  7.    #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheinaranta View Post
    I didn't realize how helpful that split would be till now, thank you.

    I haven't fully committed to the nested detail components yet. A basic profile is doing a good enough job, but I can see the split and a few masking regions would help at the detail level. Dang. This never ends.
    The nested detail component is both a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing because at 1.5" or 3", the model doesn't have to be hidden or covered with a detail component, which is fantastic.

    It's a curse because there is always someone on a project team who gets crabby because the profile innards don't match the manufacturer they are using, which is (imho) ridiculous. If you know the drip hole in the actual manufacturer unit is at 1.125" from the face of the cap, and you detail your section detail accordingly, it doesn't MATTER what's shown WITHIN the boundaries of the mullion, because it's going to be superseded by Shop Drawings anyway.

    But us getting it the right size (with shims) and us showing it with enough detail to not have to fake n bake it in a plan detail, is a benefit. So I have the nested DC's in there.


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  8.    #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    The nested detail component is both a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing because at 1.5" or 3", the model doesn't have to be hidden or covered with a detail component, which is fantastic.

    It's a curse because there is always someone on a project team who gets crabby because the profile innards don't match the manufacturer they are using, which is (imho) ridiculous. If you know the drip hole in the actual manufacturer unit is at 1.125" from the face of the cap, and you detail your section detail accordingly, it doesn't MATTER what's shown WITHIN the boundaries of the mullion, because it's going to be superseded by Shop Drawings anyway.

    But us getting it the right size (with shims) and us showing it with enough detail to not have to fake n bake it in a plan detail, is a benefit. So I have the nested DC's in there.


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    out of curiosity, how do you know what size caulking joints are required for a particular curtain wall on a project? You're on the Architect side, right? You can fuss with joint sizes all you want when what matters is...when the glazing subcontractor's detailer (me) and glazing subcontractor's Engineer (mine) get involved we determine the real required sizes per structural parameters. You can detail mullion and caulk joint details down to the inth detail but your details are wrong because we're not using that manufacturer, or that system, and the width/depth of curtain wall mullions are not going to be what you have modeled/detailed and the required caulking joint sizes are different due to Structural requirements. So, we on the Glazing industry side ask those on the Architectural side to, please be Generic regarding system shapes and sizes and let the suppliers/subcontractors determine the real end result that gets built. We try to be receptive you your wants and wishes but the specified requirements are the rule of the project for us. I offer this as a positive input.

  9.    #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jones View Post
    out of curiosity, how do you know what size caulking joints are required for a particular curtain wall on a project?
    The same way Design Teams (Architects and Engineers) know what size to show MANY things, that will all get superseded by Shop Drawings: They are showing a generic detail that is based on a Basis of Design system, that (usually) they get from a Glazing Subcontractor as part of a design consultation. Is it the subcontractor on the job? Probably not, since in early design the GC isnt even selected yet, let alone the subs. But (good) design teams still consult other people when coming up with Basis of design.

    But, to play along... Even if they didnt: I dont subscribe (ever) to the "if you cant have it right 100% of the time, you should do nothing 100% of the time." Thats a horrible position that does nothing but guarantee that our details are wrong 100% of the time. "No" shim space simply doesnt happen. So if we show something, it does a few things that are positive:

    1. Guarantees we are at least that much closer (or overcompensating, which is way better than undercompensating) to the condition as it will be built in the field

    2. (The more important one) We are making it so the architecture team doesnt have to hide the model and move and fake things in the detail, which is my primary goal.

    You're on the Architect side, right? You can fuss with joint sizes all you want when what matters is...when the glazing subcontractor's detailer (me) and glazing subcontractor's Engineer (mine) get involved we determine the real required sizes per structural parameters. You can detail mullion and caulk joint details down to the inth detail but your details are wrong because we're not using that manufacturer, or that system, and the width/depth of curtain wall mullions are not going to be what you have modeled/detailed and the required caulking joint sizes are different due to Structural requirements.
    Yes, Dave. I get it. No one (and i mean no one) can possibly do anything related to curtain walls and glazing, other than you. Also keep in mind, nowhere in any post that ive written, have i said things are "getting built" from the generic profiles we have shown. In fact, ive said (very clearly) the opposite. But there are still certain things (on the architectural end, because (frankly) thats the responsibility and scope of work i am talking about) that need to be done, and those things require Joint Sizes. I didnt ask (and dont care) if the subcontractors like the profiles im showing. They arent even a real system at all, let along a SPECIFIC system. It isnt about that.

    When architects are detailing their plan and section details, they simply arent going to leave it as a generic rectangle. More than likely, they are going to cover it up with some bologna Detail Component they hodge podged, probably from the manufacturers detail they got during their consultation. And maybe itll be right, and maybe itll be wrong. MY goal, is to make sure that whatever it is they want to show as the BOD, is at least accurately represented in the model. Showing the system that "definitely will get built" isnt even an option, and it isnt even in the cards.

    But without parametrics and joint sizes in the BOD Generic system, they will resort to modeling a simple crappy reactangle, with no shim spaces, no glass pockets, no anything... And hell, at that point (since they have to hide the model to do the plan and section details anyway), they will even stop bothering to get them modeled in the correct place.

    Im correcting TWO projects for Architecture firms that did that, right now. Its a real problem.

    So, we on the Glazing industry side ask those on the Architectural side to, please be Generic regarding system shapes and sizes and let the suppliers/subcontractors determine the real end result that gets built. We try to be receptive you your wants and wishes but the specified requirements are the rule of the project for us. I offer this as a positive input.
    And when you in the glazing industry manage to succeed at restructuring typical AEC Contracts, so that Architects dont have to finish their Plan and Section details until you have been fully engaged, contractually awarded, and consulted on a project, im sure we would all be more than happy to make REAL Design Assist, a reality. But "we ask those on the architectural side" doesnt matter, when we have details we are professionally required to create, and some of us dont want those design teams submitting a garbage model with those details, just because there is a chance itll be wrong.

    Even starting out saying: Interior Storefront has a 1/4" shim space, and Exterior Curtain Wall (full depth) has a 3/8-1/2" Shim space, gets us closer than "sitting on our ass waiting for a glazing sub that arrives on the job after 100%." Plus, keep in mind (and this is the important part): This is why the profiles are fully parametric. So WHEN we get the feedback from the oh-so-graceful subcontractor or consulting manufacturer, we can CHANGE the mullions to be as close to correct as possible.

    If we dont have the Profiles that enable that, we simply cant. And im not interesting in having a bunch of models with the RO's all wrong, just because the sub "doesnt think" i should be worrying about it. Curtain Walls, Storefronts, Door Frames, Door Panels, Light Fixtures, Air Terminals, Wall Framing, Concrete Curbs and Foundations, Structural Framing Pan Joist Layouts, Roof and Flashing Details, Partition Head, Sill, Jamb details... These are ALL things that (at some point) get superseded by a subcontractor or manufacturers details. Doesnt mean Architects can contractually not show them. So we show them as BEST as can, and as accurately as we can, to minimize the deviations that have to occur in the field. So that when the Subcontractors have to "fuss" with dimensions and sizes, the CLIENT isnt displeased with getting something that looks entirely different, because what we were showing was as close as possible.
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  10.    #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jones View Post
    Actually, I use a separate GM family with parametric joint sizes on four sides and width and height dimensions. Since my building backgrounds are always Arch model links I don't want to dimension to linked geometry so my RO frame provides geometry in my model to dimension to. I also often run into situations where the caulking joint sizes at the top, bottom, and sides will be different due to seismic requirements, story drift, etc.

    The GM family consists of lines and overlaid hidden lines and the lines have a yes/no parameter to turn them off. This way I can hide the RO frame but not lose the dimensions associated with it.

    Oh, and all of this is past tense as I am now retired
    So is this RO family what you use to cut the hole in the wall and then use a non-embedded CW in the opening?

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