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Thread: Parametric Curtain Wall Mullion Detail Components - Flexing

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    Member BLothian's Avatar
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    Parametric Curtain Wall Mullion Detail Components - Flexing

    I'm making detail components of a specific CW supplier's mullions to be displayed in plan when and I would like to have the DC's be parametric. If I draw the entire arrangement in a single family, I can easily flex the mullion depth and cap depth without issue however adjusting width is a different issue. I'm curious as to how those of you with parametric CW mullion DC's go about creating each family.

    For a single mullion, do you:
    1. Create all geometry in a single detail item family, or
    2. Create individual detail item families for each component (Mullion/Thermal Isolator/Pressure Plate/Cover Cap/Internal Gasket/Stitch Plate etc..) and nest into a parent detail item to allow easier flexing after linking parameters?


    If 1 (and I guess can also apply to 2 but not really an issue do to geometry isolation from other families), do you just use lines or filled regions with white solid fill (if no colour fill is required)?

    EDIT - Further info below.

    Also, in another recent thread of mine I note that some keep use the CW location line as the centreline of the glazing. That being the case, I assume the glazing 'pocket' location in this tutorial incorrect?
    Last edited by BLothian; April 9th, 2018 at 03:29 PM.

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    I was working on something to do just that... just at a detail component level, not nested into a mullion profile. Never got it finished.
    I had a separate back section, throat and cap with pressure plate. Glazing was separate as well.

    They were all just lines. No filled regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLothian View Post
    I'm making detail components of a specific CW supplier's mullions to be displayed in plan when and I would like to have the DC's be parametric. If I draw the entire arrangement in a single family, I can easily flex the mullion depth and cap depth without issue however adjusting width is a different issue. I'm curious as to how those of you with parametric CW mullion DC's go about creating each family.

    For a single mullion, do you:
    1. Create all geometry in a single detail item family, or
    2. Create individual detail item families for each component (Mullion/Thermal Isolator/Pressure Plate/Cover Cap/Internal Gasket/Stitch Plate etc..) and nest into a parent detail item to allow easier flexing after linking parameters?


    If 1 (and I guess can also apply to 2 but not really an issue do to geometry isolation from other families), do you just use lines or filled regions with white solid fill (if no colour fill is required)?

    EDIT - Further info below.

    Also, in another recent thread of mine I note that some keep use the CW location line as the centreline of the glazing. That being the case, I assume the glazing 'pocket' location in this tutorial incorrect?

    #2 for me because that's how they are fabricated and installed in the real world. Every manufacturer's curtain wall sections are an assembly of extrusions all of which have a die number. I build my DC families per die and name them to match. Many dies are multi purpose and are used in lots of different section assemblies. All of my DCs are built using a standard XY location. This makes the interchange of parts to create a different assembly a snap. My XY location is at the center line of glass at the center line of section. In the project I make detail groups from the parts that make up an assembly. My customers have this nasty habit of, at the last minute, changing the face caps from a 3/4" deep cap to a 1" deep cap. Quick and easy change for me...

    btw, I didn't read the recent thread or tutorial that you linked

    edit, I checked out the tutorial. I actually had conversation with Jon about this as I disagree with his method. He got so mad that he quit the curtain wall business and went to work for Goodyear Tire and Rubber
    Last edited by Dave Jones; April 9th, 2018 at 05:03 PM.
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    Member kowen1208's Avatar
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    Never made CW mullion DCs, but I'd go for option #2. It's easier to ensure lines don't create unwanted associations to adjacent lines and stretch improperly, and as Dave explained, switch out parts.

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    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    Number 2, but my nested components aren't broken up in to logical pieces based on components of the physical assembly itself.

    If you want the Mullions and the profiles to flex (for designers to be able to change sizes quickly when they haven't selected products yet) you'll want the nested DC's broken up in to "left, right, front, back, and pocket" or something similar, so you don't have to constrain hundreds of lines. Or, the performance will suck.

    My Mullions all have nested generic (more detailed than just the outline, but not manufacturer specific) Detail Components at Medium and Fine LOD, and can all change size. And there are options for Shim Spaces in all of them, so the Mullions never have to be hidden at large details.

    Sent from my Phablet. Please excuse typos... and bad ideas.

    Aaron Maller
    Director
    Parallax Team, Inc.

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    I would be interested to see some sample models from Aaron (Twiceroadfool) and Dave Jones. I have created quite a few mullion profile families with nested detail components based of various Kawneer UK systems and found them to be ok, but they do take a long time to create if you try and make them contain a lot of the standard gasket and glass size options. I have attached the AA100 system I created It beats the BIMStore offering but still has its limitations, unfortunately it is a .rvt file and exceeds the size limit so I have had to put it in a zip file. I think the more we all share our problems / solutions, the better we will all become. Hopefully Autodesk will get round to fixing the Curtain Wall tool some day.

    Darren
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazza1639 View Post
    I would be interested to see some sample models from Aaron (Twiceroadfool) and Dave Jones. I have created quite a few mullion profile families with nested detail components based of various Kawneer UK systems and found them to be ok, but they do take a long time to create if you try and make them contain a lot of the standard gasket and glass size options. I have attached the AA100 system I created It beats the BIMStore offering but still has its limitations, unfortunately it is a .rvt file and exceeds the size limit so I have had to put it in a zip file. I think the more we all share our problems / solutions, the better we will all become. Hopefully Autodesk will get round to fixing the Curtain Wall tool some day.

    Darren
    Hi Darren, that's quite a detailed assembly of curtain wall mullions! Maybe it's different in the UK from here (USA) but I've never seen the need to have modeled curtain wall geometry show that level of detail in enlarged plans or sections. To much work, as you have noted, and to me, to much room for error when a curtain wall changes details, say mid mullion. Example: insulated vision glass and monolithic spandrel glass. Spandrel glass can have options for back pans, insulation, static or dynamic splices, etc. How do you get all of that into live details in the correct places? I use live plans and sections of Revit curtain wall to keep track of overall frame dimensions, glass lite sizes, module dimensions, etc. but my finite details are done with detail component groups on drafting views. That to me is fast, easily adjusted to changing curtain wall conditions, and accurate if one is paying attention to what's going on as they should. My detail components are parametric to cover lots of different conditions. For instance I have one Kawneer 1600 Wall1 face cap detail with types for all of the various cap depth options.

    And, Aaron would probably have a totally different approach as he's on the Architectural side and what he creates is different than what we create from an end result standpoint. He always has good advice though so I hope he weighs in here also...

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    Forum Co-Founder Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    The images tell most of the story. I can zoom in on the mullions if there is really a burning desire to see the profile, but its very generic. Its not meant to adapt to every single real world profile that exists, nor does it. But its super lightweight, in terms of changing sizes. Nowhere near as heavy as the Kawneer Profile downloads, meant for Revit.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Parametric Curtain Wall Mullion Detail Components - Flexing-2018-04-06_10-28-51-cw-types.png   Parametric Curtain Wall Mullion Detail Components - Flexing-2018-04-06_10-29-21.png   Parametric Curtain Wall Mullion Detail Components - Flexing-2018-04-06_10-31-59.png  
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    This example was just to show what would be possible, to try and get Kawneer and schueco in the uk to provide their cad blocks as Revit detail components. I agree that the details should be done in drafting views, especially as you cannot dimension to detail items nested in mullion profiles, and we quite often have to provide large scale dimensioned frame sections as part of our fabricator packs, these dims are talent to some of the nested details, so this type of mullion would be no good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazza1639 View Post
    This example was just to show what would be possible, to try and get Kawneer and schueco in the uk to provide their cad blocks as Revit detail components. I agree that the details should be done in drafting views, especially as you cannot dimension to detail items nested in mullion profiles, and we quite often have to provide large scale dimensioned frame sections as part of our fabricator packs, these dims are talent to some of the nested details, so this type of mullion would be no good.
    and, as I said, it was a great example of what's possible. The issue with Revit is, depending on who the output of your model and detailing is meant for you could model and detail in any number of ways and as long as whomever you are outputting to is happy, then all is good. And everyone's somebody is different. But I'm always interested to get input from others, particularly those that model and detail curtain wall, about how they do things. As you said in your OP, we all can get better with the sharing of ideas here. So, thanks for the post!

    edit: oh and btw, if Kawneer came out with any further Revit content I wouldn't touch it with a 9'-8" pole. Same as all of the other crud they have come up with over the years. And Kawneer is the best of them
    Last edited by Dave Jones; May 30th, 2018 at 07:33 PM.

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