Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 57

Thread: Revit Forum Wish List ? (Factory - Please read too)

  1. #31
    Autodesk Scott D Davis's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 5, 2011
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    514
    Current Local Time
    11:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Price View Post
    Just a little ****** at the attempt to spin a five year wait into something like "responsiveness".
    Don't be ******, because there was no attempt at a spin. :-) Just simply was trying to point out that some wishlist items do (eventually) make it into Revit. You all were asking about the validity of a wishlist, and wondering if the Factory even looked at it, and I was pointing out that they do. Never said the things included in 2011 were "new" wishlist items. Some items were "fixes" (DLM) but at the same time the fix was made by directly listening to user response. Ok, we got it, 2010 ribbon had some "issues" :-). The fixes that came were a direct result of customer feedback.

    Now, with that being said, lets talk about timing...2012 is done. 2013 is in the works. 2014 is being planned. So if the RevitForum wishlsit was up and running now and being populated with wishlist items, some of those *might* make it into 2014, but more likely 2015. Now those wishes are on top of all the other wishes that are currently there, which BTW take a DATABASE to keep track of now!

    So something so seemingly simple as adding Select All Instances in a View, sometimes takes time to "float" its way to the top of the list because over time, other things come up that require more immediate attention. (and yes some of things are self-imposed aka DLM). The other thing that you all should know is that no matter how small a tool or feature is, EVERYTHING has to get documented. Moving a tab from one position to another, for instance, requires a "project" for documentation. Someone here has to put the project into motion by first requesting the project, documenting the who, what, when, wheres, and whys...the project gets prioritized, the project (sometimes) gets the go-ahead, programmers work on it and it gets included in a build. Then QA starts to test the tool (and thus why its documented, they need to know what to test) and often times bugs cause rework and more documentation...I could go on but hopefully you all get the idea.

    We all want Revit to be the best possible tool, and we all work hard to deliver that to you. It's definitely not easy, and the Factory will be the first to admit they aren't "perfect." The current database is overflowing with great ideas, on top of all the other great things that our Factory is coming up with that we think will make Revit the best tool ever. There are some great things coming in future releases...some are things you've asked for, and some are things that will just blow you away. Someday (and i use 'someday' very loosely) you may even be able to use that "roads" category in object styles....

  2. #32
    Administrator Gordon Price's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 7, 2010
    Location
    Berlin!
    Posts
    2,247
    Current Local Time
    08:11 AM
    Scott,
    I guess maybe we are dealing in semantics here. You see, in my book "spin" is by definition the selective ignoring or accentuating of reality to make a point. And you accentuated a few items from last year's wishlist that got addressed, while ignoring how many YEARS some of those items had been on the wishlist and not addressed, as well as ignoring the many other items on last years wishlist that where also not addressed, but are arguably more important to most users every single day than some of the stuff that did get done. Kind of a textbook example of spin, if you ask me. Not done maliciously. I know that. But spin none the less, and very frustrating for users. Because yes, some wishlist items do indeed "eventually" make it into the product, but NOT because they where wishlist items that we put effort into. Certainly not in a timely fashion because they where wishlist items that the massive majority of users want/need. Simply put, there is NO causality here, just correlation. Spinning the correlation angle doesn't change that.
    Furthermore, you said "some of those *might* make it into 2014, but more likely 2015" regarding timeline for any new RFO Wishlist items. Which conveniently ignores the fact that, no matter how important a wish is to users, it MIGHT be 2020 before some of these features are implemented. A more accurate phrasing would have been "None of those will possibly make it in before 2014, and it could very well be as long as 2020 before any of them make it in, if they do at all." Both statements are EXACTLY the same as far as accuracy, because without some real wishes and some evaluation (the formula for which Autodesk doesn't share) no one can make any kind of real statistical valuation, so both are equally true. But one sure "sounds nicer". Spin.
    Now if wishlists had any real impact (i.e. something more than a vague "we look at them") then a lot of features would have been done long ago. I say this because I don't believe you can find a single user on the planet who considers Site Tools, Stairs, Railings and even Curtain Walls to be excellent tools. Or even passable. With the exception of Curtain Walls I would bet everyone agrees they all suck. Hard. And we have been saying that, with one voice, from about 4 seconds after Autodesk bought Revit. Indeed, from before Autodesk bought Revit. In addition, probably 99.99999% of the work done in Revit has a site. And probably 99% has stairs. Talk about MASSIVE impact. A few orders of magnitude more important than Adaptive Components, no matter how cool they are. Missing, tools NEEDED by every office, every single day. Present, cool tools used on MAYBE 1% of work done globally, and then maybe .5% of offices.
    And yet, somehow, those wishlist requests have totally failed to rise to the level of "worth the effort" from the standpoint of Autodesk's decision makers. That says to me, in no uncertain terms, that we should NOT put any meaningful weight on the wishlist, because obviously Autodesk doesn't either. Yes, we can be excited when we finally get some useful tool that we have been begging for for years. And, if we do our wishlist right, and really dig into describing HOW the tool should work, we minimize the chances of another Guide Grids fiasco where something is done so utterly wrong as to be useless, and yet it took time away from doing other things. So yeah, there may be value in the wishlist. But not the kind I think users expect. Call it managed expectations.

    Lastly, yes, we should all be amazed at one thing for sure. Somehow, despite all the management overhead paper pushing idiocy, Autodesk still manages to produce something. I am constantly amazed that the Factory can do anything at all given the road blocks the process throws up.

    Gordon

  3. #33
    Autodesk Scott D Davis's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 5, 2011
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    514
    Current Local Time
    11:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Price View Post
    In addition, probably 99.99999% of the work done in Revit has a site. And probably 99% has stairs. Talk about MASSIVE impact. A few orders of magnitude more important than Adaptive Components, no matter how cool they are.
    While adaptive components are cool, and seem to have little importance to basic design elements such as stairs and site, they actually play a major role in the development of some really kick-ass stair and site tools, as well as others. So while things like stairs and site seem to have been put on the backburner for "less important" things like adaptive components, the truth is that adaptive components are a necessary stepping stone in the process. You've already seen some of this, as adaptive componets (and the underlying code that makes the geometry possible) has already made curtain walls/curtain panels by pattern much more powerful.
    Last edited by Scott D Davis; March 9th, 2011 at 06:07 PM.

  4. #34
    Administrator Gordon Price's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 7, 2010
    Location
    Berlin!
    Posts
    2,247
    Current Local Time
    08:11 AM
    So is this official word that "adaptive components will beget site tools"? Because thus far what we have gotten "officially" from Autodesk is !^%#%$ NOTHING. And that is what leads to so much frustration. We ask and ask and ask, get no tools, and also get nothing in the way of Autodesk communicating their vision or offering an explanation. Personally I think because the executive suite singularly lacks in vision, but I digress.
    But again, are you making an official statement? Or are we still in a "trust us, we know what we are doing, it's all for the better" mode?

    Gordon

    PS, if curtain walls have gotten so much better, why can I STILL not get a meaningful corner mullion? Sure, I can make a building out of a photo of Claudia Schiffer, but I may need to do that once in my career. I need corner mullions all the time. Reeks of marketing priorities, not user priorities. Just sayin.

  5. #35
    Administrator Munkholm's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 7, 2010
    Location
    Kingdom of Denmark
    Posts
    4,050
    Current Local Time
    08:11 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Cunningham View Post
    Would some form of a template, outlining and describing the issues/problems, be of value to factory workers?
    Quote Originally Posted by dzatto View Post
    ...is there a way to have a form to fill out, and when you hit reply it puts it in the thread? That way they are all the same format?
    Have been talking to the guy who receives the Feedback emails at The Factory, and it turns out that he/they prefer a layout like that - So, when clicking "Submit New Topic" in the Wish List forum, you are now taken to a form, that submits a new thread with the "correct" layout.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbenoit44 View Post
    ...The forum about wishes, in my idea, should not allow answer to a thread, IF this thread is clear and valuable...
    The Wish List forum still allows for replies, but each new thread is automatically created with a Poll, which could be used instead of "I second that" or "I donīt need that".
    But if someone have some additional information to go along with the OP, itīs just fine to post a reply.

  6. #36
    Administrator Ian.Kidston's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 7, 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,136
    Current Local Time
    06:11 PM
    Scott,

    Thanks for a small snippet of insight into what might be happening with stairs, sites etc & for taking the heat from Gordon! (mmm...I certainly hope Gordon doesn't get grumpy at me - better go and find the asbestos lined jacket and fire proof gloves or otherwise simply ) And thanks also for been a basic understanding of the time lines for development at the factory.

    Given the post on the Insidethefactory blog (http://insidethefactory.typepad.com/...by-number.html) it was clear that stairs were something which is currently being looked at, but I was unaware that either site tools or stairs also might benefit from Adaptive components background work.

    That said, I do share Gordon's frustration regarding the lack of feedback from AutoDesk on why long standing wishlist items and obvious functionality defects have not as yet been addressed. Is it that no one have been given the authority to speak on these matters, or everyone is running around like cut cats and simply can't keep up with the email correspondence or some other reason?

    Even basic information like you have above is useful knowledge for all of us to have.

    Cheers

  7. #37
    Autodesk JeffH's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 13, 2010
    Location
    The Ivory Tower (Manchester NH)
    Posts
    494
    Current Local Time
    02:11 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Price View Post
    And, if we do our wishlist right, and really dig into describing HOW the tool should work, we minimize the chances of another Guide Grids fiasco where something is done so utterly wrong as to be useless, and yet it took time away from doing other things. So yeah, there may be value in the wishlist. But not the kind I think users expect. Call it managed expectations.
    I would caution you when making a "wish" to not perscribe EXACTLY HOW a tool should work. This is a recipe for disappointment when something is released and it is not EXACTLY how you described it.

    It is far more valuable to us to understand WHAT you are trying to do, WHY you are trying to do this and how this fits into the overall WORKFLOW of your design/documentation/Revit process. This leaves a wide range of possibilities.

    If the HOW a tool is to work is prescribed right off the bat the possible solutions are more limited, perhaps limited to ONE "acceptable" solution before we even start. Kind of an "all or nothing" proposition. Often it is hard to win those battles when many factors need to be considered.

  8. #38
    Forum Co-Founder iru69's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 7, 2010
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    1,335
    Current Local Time
    11:11 PM
    Munkholm, I think by doing that, it kills the forum. It's just going to make it another "dead" version of what they've got over on AUGI.

    Every time someone tries to formalize the process on a forum, it goes against the grain of making it easy and inviting to participate. It just doesn't work very well.

    I say "no" to forms to fill out, the more people who submit the same wish to Autodesk, the better, and let anyone reply in the threads however they want. If they want a poll, cool. If not, not needed.

    This is one of those things where the journey is the reward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkholm View Post
    Have been talking to the guy who receives the Feedback emails at The Factory, and it turns out that he/they prefer a layout like that - So, when clicking "Submit New Topic" in the Wish List forum, you are now taken to a form, that submits a new thread with the "correct" layout.

    The Wish List forum still allows for replies, but each new thread is automatically created with a Poll, which could be used instead of "I second that" or "I donīt need that".
    But if someone have some additional information to go along with the OP, itīs just fine to post a reply.
    Last edited by iru69; March 9th, 2011 at 09:25 PM. Reason: clarified meaning

  9. #39
    Administrator Gordon Price's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 7, 2010
    Location
    Berlin!
    Posts
    2,247
    Current Local Time
    08:11 AM
    Jeff,
    I certainly appreciate the need to not demand a specific solution. Functionality is of course the more important issue, compared to actual command structure. But I do think there is value in nailing down a very specific answer, as long as it is tied to a very specific use case and the rationale for why that is proposed as a specific answer is offered. Without that, how can the Factory actually understand the what is being asked?

    For example, if all I say is "Graphic feature 'X' needs to be easy to turn on and off" I haven't been very helpful. To a programmer going to options to change this might be "easy".

    A better example is "I need to be able to toggle this feature on and off in real time, ideally while still actively in the command, and ideally without moving the mouse pointer because the purpose of Graphic Feature X is to make it easier to select items in certain situations, and having to move the mouse pointer I am using to select in order to also toggle behavior is counter productive. A better answer would be using the ALT button as an in command toggle, hold it down for behavior B, let go to revert to behavior A. Ideally the user should be able to define (via settings) what the Default behavior is. Ease of toggling is doubly important because I may be doing this hundreds of times a day. And the setting needs to live in the Roaming settings, so any machine I go to, I get my version of Default behavior."
    Sure, the Factory could still turn around and use Shift as the toggle. Or put a button on the ribbons anyway because the underlying code in Revit isn't capable of handling in command toggles. But if I don't describe in that level of detail, and neither does anyone else, chances are we get a toggle in Settings because that is the super easy answer and no one is going to waste time thinking beyond that unless they see the need. If a wishlist has any utility at all, it is to help communicate those subtle definitions, in all their varied forms. Hopefully then we get a tool that works at least passably well for everyone, as apposed to something like Guide Grids that actually don't work well for anyone at all. Are they better than the nothing we had? I guess. Maybe. Probably not actually. Are they better than having nothing for an extra year and getting it right next year? No way, I would have gladly waited the year to get something right to start with! Are we likely to ever see a right version, now that the wrong version has actually shipped? I don't know, but history suggests once it ships that is what we have for many years. So yeah, if we can make a wishlist that just helps avoid the horribly wrong, I am down with that.

    By the way, I just got the invite to do the annual Satisfaction Survey. They asked what tools where missing? Wanted me to describe what was broken in Schedules in one paragraph. WTF!!!? Great timing, that. And the same waste of time it is every year.

    Gordon
    Last edited by Gordon Price; March 9th, 2011 at 10:05 PM.

  10. #40
    Administrator Munkholm's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 7, 2010
    Location
    Kingdom of Denmark
    Posts
    4,050
    Current Local Time
    08:11 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by iru69 View Post
    Munkholm, I think by doing that, it kills the forum. It's just going to make it another "dead" version of what they've got over on AUGI.

    Every time someone tries to formalize the process on a forum, it goes against the grain of making it easy and inviting to participate. It just doesn't work very well.

    I say "no" to forms to fill out, the more people who submit the same wish to Autodesk, the better, and let anyone reply in the threads however they want. If they want a poll, cool. If not, not needed.

    This is one of those things where the journey is the reward.
    Ehhmmm... you filled a "form" to post the above reply, didnīt you? Now that same form is just broken into 4 pieces - And if thatīs what works for The Factory, thatīs what works for me.

    Thereīs no reason not to reply to a submitted topic, and get the discussions going - Frankly Iīd encourage everyone to do so! Just try to refrain from just posting "I second that" - Instead participate in the poll that comes with each topic.

    And I doubt that this will be another "dead" version of Augiīs... The wish list at Augi is moderated, and it can (literally) take years before a wish even makes it to the public forum. Here the wish is posted instantly, itīs formatted the way it works best for the Factory, and the voting process can begin immediate.

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. View List Question For Factory
    By gdoherty0102 in forum Architecture and General Revit Questions
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: May 25th, 2011, 03:50 PM
  2. Revit 2011 - Official list of known issues / solutions
    By Munkholm in forum Tutorials, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: January 10th, 2011, 08:25 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •